anuvitakketi & vitakketi

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diligence
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anuvitakketi & vitakketi

Post by diligence » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:16 am

What's the difference between anuvitakketi and vitakketi? :anjali:
With the arising of delight, there is the arising of suffering. With the cessation of delight, comes the cessation of suffering.
Nandisamudayā dukkhasamudayo, nandinirodhā dukkhanirodho.
Dukkhameva uppajjamānaṃ uppajjati, dukkhaṃ nirujjhamānaṃ nirujjhati.

frank k
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Re: anuvitakketi & vitakketi

Post by frank k » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:30 pm

diligence wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:16 am
What's the difference between anuvitakketi and vitakketi? :anjali:
Here's a comprehensive listing of very vitakka occurrence in the suttas. You'll find anu-vitakka in there many times.
http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/v ... ndex.html

one of the meanings for the prefix 'anu' is 'follow'. For example, in the 4sp satipatthana formula, the anu-passana in each exercise,
is 'following' one right after another continuously. For example, doing kaya anupassana, one continuously 'sees' (passana) a body as a body (as it actually is).

Similarly, anu-vitakka is one vitakka following right after another continuously. So a train of thought is one way to translate it.
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diligence
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Re: anuvitakketi & vitakketi

Post by diligence » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:36 am

frank k wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:30 pm
diligence wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:16 am
What's the difference between anuvitakketi and vitakketi? :anjali:
Here's a comprehensive listing of very vitakka occurrence in the suttas. You'll find anu-vitakka in there many times.
http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/v ... ndex.html

one of the meanings for the prefix 'anu' is 'follow'. For example, in the 4sp satipatthana formula, the anu-passana in each exercise,
is 'following' one right after another continuously. For example, doing kaya anupassana, one continuously 'sees' (passana) a body as a body (as it actually is).

Similarly, anu-vitakka is one vitakka following right after another continuously. So a train of thought is one way to translate it.

Great help! :heart: :twothumbsup: Thank you very much! :anjali:

Yaṃ kho, bhikkhu, divā kammante ārabbha rattiṃ anuvitakketi anuvicāreti– ayaṃ rattiṃ dhūmāyanā. (MN.23)

About anuvitakketi, could I say that if it follows proper objects then it belongs to kusala (the 4sp satipatthana formula), if it follows improper objects, then it belongs to akusala (the upper sentense) :?:
With the arising of delight, there is the arising of suffering. With the cessation of delight, comes the cessation of suffering.
Nandisamudayā dukkhasamudayo, nandinirodhā dukkhanirodho.
Dukkhameva uppajjamānaṃ uppajjati, dukkhaṃ nirujjhamānaṃ nirujjhati.

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DooDoot
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Re: anuvitakketi & vitakketi

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:59 am

"Vitakketi" appears to be a type of verb (doing word) - "was thinking", "thinks". For example:
Now at that time that mendicant, during their day’s meditation, was thinking bad unskillful thoughts to do with the lay life.

Tena kho pana samayena so bhikkhu divāvihāragato pāpake akusale vitakke vitakketi gehanissite.

https://suttacentral.net/sn9.1/en/sujato

"vitakke" = plural of "vitakka" = nouns
They think what they want to think (Sujato)

He thinks whatever he wants to think (Bodhi)

So [He] yaṃ [whatever] vitakkaṃ [thought = noun] ākaṅkhati [wishes to] vitakketuṃ [to think = verb] taṃ [whatever] vitakkaṃ [thought = noun] vitakketi [he thinks = verb]

https://suttacentral.net/an4.35/en/sujato
"Anuvitakketi" includes the prefix "anu". According to the dictionary, "anu" here means "over" or "about".
anu˚vitakheti = reflect over

https://suttacentral.net/define/anu
as they recollect and think about that teaching.

So tathā vūpakaṭṭho viharanto taṃ dhammaṃ anussarati anuvitakketi

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.3/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

frank k
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Re: anuvitakketi & vitakketi

Post by frank k » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:22 pm

diligence wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:36 am
...
About anuvitakketi, could I say that if it follows proper objects then it belongs to kusala (the 4sp satipatthana formula), if it follows improper objects, then it belongs to akusala (the upper sentense) :?:
I guess it depends on what you mean by 'follows'. If one is investigating akusala objects with wisdom, then that thought is kusala. If one's investigating kusala objects and interpreting (thinking about it) wrongly, then that would be akusala thinking/investigating.
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DooDoot
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Re: anuvitakketi & vitakketi

Post by DooDoot » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:47 am

diligence wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:36 am
About anuvitakketi, could I say that if it follows proper objects then it belongs to kusala (the 4sp satipatthana formula), if it follows improper objects, then it belongs to akusala (the upper sentense) :?:
Satipatthana uses "anupassi" ("closely watching over") rather than "anuvitakketi" ("closely thinking over").
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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diligence
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Re: anuvitakketi & vitakketi

Post by diligence » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:55 am

frank k wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:22 pm
I guess it depends on what you mean by 'follows'. If one is investigating akusala objects with wisdom, then that thought is kusala. If one's investigating kusala objects and interpreting (thinking about it) wrongly, then that would be akusala thinking/investigating.
Yaṃ kho, bhikkhu, divā kammante ārabbha rattiṃ anuvitakketi anuvicāreti– ayaṃ rattiṃ dhūmāyanā. (MN.23)

——Isn’t this akusala thinking/investigating?
With the arising of delight, there is the arising of suffering. With the cessation of delight, comes the cessation of suffering.
Nandisamudayā dukkhasamudayo, nandinirodhā dukkhanirodho.
Dukkhameva uppajjamānaṃ uppajjati, dukkhaṃ nirujjhamānaṃ nirujjhati.

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diligence
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Re: anuvitakketi & vitakketi

Post by diligence » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:59 am
"Vitakketi" appears to be a type of verb (doing word) - "was thinking", "thinks". For example:
...
It's very considerate of you, I've learnt a lot. Thank you very much! :quote: :anjali:
With the arising of delight, there is the arising of suffering. With the cessation of delight, comes the cessation of suffering.
Nandisamudayā dukkhasamudayo, nandinirodhā dukkhanirodho.
Dukkhameva uppajjamānaṃ uppajjati, dukkhaṃ nirujjhamānaṃ nirujjhati.

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DooDoot
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Re: anuvitakketi & vitakketi

Post by DooDoot » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:28 am

diligence wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:10 am
It's very considerate of you, I've learnt a lot. Thank you very much!
You are welcome. I am merely a beginner with Pali therefore I actually also learned a lot (because I spent about 40 minutes enjoyably researching my answer). Kind regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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diligence
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Re: anuvitakketi & vitakketi

Post by diligence » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:57 pm

[/quote]
... I spent about 40 minutes enjoyably researching my answer.
[/quote]

Teaching others teaches yourself.
Helping others helping ourselves.

:heart: :anjali:
With the arising of delight, there is the arising of suffering. With the cessation of delight, comes the cessation of suffering.
Nandisamudayā dukkhasamudayo, nandinirodhā dukkhanirodho.
Dukkhameva uppajjamānaṃ uppajjati, dukkhaṃ nirujjhamānaṃ nirujjhati.

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