What is kayena ?

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sentinel
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What is kayena ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:35 am

Some translation is body , some translated as Personal ?!
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

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DooDoot
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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:39 am

"Kayena" is simply "kaya" and therefore has the same general meaning of "body".

However, in terms of grammar, "kayena" is the "instrumental case" of "kaya", which means when the body is used as an instrument, such as if the body is used to perform work.

Therefore, for example, the word "kayena" is used for "bodily kamma", namely, kamma performed by the body, as follows:
AN 6.63 wrote:It is intention that I call deeds.
Cetanāhaṃ, bhikkhave, kammaṃ vadāmi.

For after making a choice one acts
Cetayitvā kammaṃ karoti—

by way of body, speech, and mind.
kāyena vācāya manasā.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/sujato
"Kayena" means "performed by the body" or "the body used as an instrument".

In Pali, if you are going to say: "I use my body for swimming", the word for "body" will be "kayena" rather than "kaya".

:alien:

For example, in Pali, there is the phrase: "kāye kāyānupassī"

"Kāye" is "locative case", which means "kaye" means "in the body". The word "kaye" means something in the phrase is located in the body.

"Kāyānupassī" has "kaya" in the normal or nominative case. It is not known whether "kaya" here is singular or plural. "Anupassī" means to "closely watch". "Kāyānupassī" means "closely watching the body" or "closely watching bodies".

Therefore, "kāye kāyānupassī" means "in the body, closely watching bodies" or "closely watching bodies in the body".

If the phrase contained the word "kayena" instead of "kaye", then the translation of "kāyena kāyānupassī" would be "using the body to closely watch the body/bodies" or "closely watching the body with the body".
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sentinel
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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:43 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:39 am
"Kayena" is simply "kaya" and therefore has the same general meaning of "body".

However, in terms of grammar, "kayena" is the "instrumental case" of "kaya", which means when the body is used as an instrument, such as if the body is used to perform work.

Therefore, for example, the word "kayena" is used for "bodily kamma", namely, kamma performed by the body, as follows:
AN 6.63 wrote:It is intention that I call deeds.
Cetanāhaṃ, bhikkhave, kammaṃ vadāmi.

For after making a choice one acts
Cetayitvā kammaṃ karoti—

by way of body, speech, and mind.
kāyena vācāya manasā.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/sujato
"Kayena" means "performed by the body" or "the body used as an instrument".

In Pali, if you are going to say: "I use my body for swimming", the word for "body" will be "kayena" rather than "kaya".

:alien:

For example, in Pali, there is the phrase: "kāye kāyānupassī"

"Kāye" is "locative case", which means "kaye" means "in the body". The word "kaye" means something in the phrase is located in the body.

"Kāyānupassī" has "kaya" in the normal or nominative case. It is not known whether "kaya" here is singular or plural. "Anupassī" means to "closely watch". "Kāyānupassī" means "closely watching the body" or "closely watching bodies".

Therefore, "kāye kāyānupassī" means "in the body, closely watching bodies" or "closely watching bodies in the body".

If the phrase contained the word "kayena" instead of "kaye", then the translation of "kāyena kāyānupassī" would be "using the body to closely watch the body/bodies" or "closely watching the body with the body".
Ok , how about kayena as "personal" ? Make sense ?
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:14 am

sentinel wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:43 am

Ok , how about kayena as "personal" ? Make sense ?
I think it would make less sense than Doodoot's answer. Kāya apparently means "body", normally in the sense of our physical body, but also meaning the trunk of the body, or a collection or grouping of something (as in "a body of men"). In this last sense, it is I believe sometimes used as a grouping of the five khandas, which could be taken to mean a "person".

As DD rightly says, it is the instrumental case of that noun.

Do you have an example in context?

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DooDoot
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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:27 am

sentinel wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:43 am
Ok , how about kayena as "personal" ? Make sense ?
I do not have enough Pali knowledge to answer this question. However, i found some examples of "my body" in translations, where each simply uses a personal pronoun.

1. Upasenassa kāye: Upasena’s body. Because the person's name "Upasena" is written as "Upasenassa", we know Upasenassa is in "genitive case". Genitive case indicates possession, such as in English when I say: "Sentinel's car". Therefore, "kāye" here is in singular nominative (normal) case. "Kāye" simply means "body".

2. "May my body become tranquil: kāyo me passambhatū". Since the personal pronoun "my" exists, the word "kayo" is singular nominative (normal) case. "Kāye" simply means "body".

To search for the "case" based on the ending of the word, you need to use one of these tables:
Attachments
Pali table.png
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Sobhana
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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by Sobhana » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:34 am

German translators, like the Venerable Nyanatiloka but others as well, often translate kāyena as leibhaftig. Leib means physical body, but the meaning of the term is fairly complex and sometimes has the connotation of personally. Nyanatiloka sometimes uses persönlich/personally to translate kāyena as well.

And can one really realize the deathless or the 8 liberations using the body?

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DooDoot
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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:51 am

Sobhana wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:34 am
And can one really realize the deathless or the 8 liberations using the body?
Hi Sobhana. I suggest the word 'kaya' here means 'group' (rather than physical body). It seems the 'group' refers to the totality of the five aggregates. For example, Ajahn Brahm said about jhana:
Kaya has the same range of meanings as the English word "body." Just as "body" can mean things other than the body of a person, such as a "body of evidence" for example, so too the Pali word kaya can mean things other than a physical body, such as a body of mental factors, nama-kaya. (DN 15.20). In the Jhanas, the five senses aren't operating, meaning that there is no experience of a physical body. The body has been transcended. Therefore, when the Buddha states in these four similes "...so that there is no part of his whole kaya un-pervaded (by bliss etc.)," this can be taken to mean "…so that there is no part of his whole mental body of experience un-pervaded (by bliss etc.)" (MN 39.16). This point is too often misunderstood.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn ... Jhanas.htm
:candle:
Sobhana wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:34 am
kāyena above appears instrumental, that is, meaning 'with the kaya'.

Regards :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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sentinel
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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:02 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:14 am
Do you have an example in context?
So it seems the translation is "personally" .
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.31/en/sujato

And with the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’
Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti, yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

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Sam Vara
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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:35 pm

sentinel wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:02 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:14 am
Do you have an example in context?
So it seems the translation is "personally" .
https://suttacentral.net/sn36.31/en/sujato

And with the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’
Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti, yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
Thanks. In that particular context you cite, it could fit either of the two meanings. If we take kāya here to mean "the aggregates, viewed as a group or totality", then it could mean personally: pertaining to those aggregates in question. But to favour that interpretation we would need to know whether that particular formulation is used to mean "personally" in different contexts. And, (with my very limited understanding of the Pali) I think the case would then more likely be the locative: kāye, kāyasmim. If you think about it, the term "personally" is quite vague. It can sometimes mean that we are referring to a particular person ("You are personally responsible for this") and sometimes as a vague intensifier or filler: ("I personally feel that this is the case"). The term "personally experiencing the bliss" does not here add anything to "experiencing the bliss". Who else would be experiencing it? :shrug:

I'm very open to correction here, but I would have thought that experiencing something through, or with, or by means of the physical body, is closest here. It's a bliss felt in the physical body.

sentinel
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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by sentinel » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:59 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:35 pm

Thanks. In that particular context you cite, it could fit either of the two meanings. If we take kāya here to mean "the aggregates, viewed as a group or totality", then it could mean personally: pertaining to those aggregates in question. But to favour that interpretation we would need to know whether that particular formulation is used to mean "personally" in different contexts. And, (with my very limited understanding of the Pali) I think the case would then more likely be the locative: kāye, kāyasmim. If you think about it, the term "personally" is quite vague. It can sometimes mean that we are referring to a particular person ("You are personally responsible for this") and sometimes as a vague intensifier or filler: ("I personally feel that this is the case"). The term "personally experiencing the bliss" does not here add anything to "experiencing the bliss". Who else would be experiencing it? :shrug:

I'm very open to correction here, but I would have thought that experiencing something through, or with, or by means of the physical body, is closest here. It's a bliss felt in the physical body.
Hi sam , thanks . I think I would agree with you because I searched for the agama and it also refers to the physical body not personally .
In Chinese , 自覺樂 is personally experience bliss whereas , 身覺樂 is physically experience bliss .
https://suttacentral.net/ma176/lzh/taisho

復次,行禪者離於喜欲,捨無求遊,正念正智而身覺樂,謂聖所說、聖所捨、念、樂住、空,得第三禪成就遊。
https://suttacentral.net/ea12.1/lzh/taisho

復次,比丘!捨於念,修於護,恒自覺知 身覺樂,諸賢聖所求,護念清淨,行於三 禪。如是,比丘法法相觀意止。
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by Sobhana » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:08 pm

身 also has the meaning of oneself, personally.

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DooDoot
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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:58 pm

sentinel wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:02 pm
So it seems the translation is "personally" .

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.31/en/sujato

And with the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’
Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti, yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
There appears nothing in the Pali to indicate the word "personally". Sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti = happiness with the body is experienced/felt. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates as: "experiences happiness with the body"; Thanissaro: "feels happiness within".

For example, the word "personally" is found in MN 37:
When he does not cling (think about), he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. (Bodhi)

Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished. (Sujato)

Anupādiyaṃ na paritassati, aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

sentinel
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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by sentinel » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:58 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:58 pm
sentinel wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:02 pm
So it seems the translation is "personally" .

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.31/en/sujato

And with the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’
Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti, yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
There appears nothing in the Pali to indicate the word "personally". Sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti = happiness with the body is experienced/felt. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates as: "experiences happiness with the body"; Thanissaro: "feels happiness within".

For example, the word "personally" is found in MN 37:
When he does not cling (think about), he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. (Bodhi)

Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished. (Sujato)

Anupādiyaṃ na paritassati, aparitassaṃ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati:
Hi DD , thanks for all your elaborate replies . It seems some translations could be very misleading . Nowadays , people tends to make new changes but do in rushing which resulted in amateur sequel instead .
知人者智,自知者明。胜人有力,自胜者强。知足者富,强行有志。不失其所者久,死而不亡者寿。

auto
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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by auto » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:38 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:39 am
"Kayena" is simply "kaya" and therefore has the same general meaning of "body".

However, in terms of grammar, "kayena" is the "instrumental case" of "kaya", which means when the body is used as an instrument, such as if the body is used to perform work.

Therefore, for example, the word "kayena" is used for "bodily kamma", namely, kamma performed by the body, as follows:
AN 6.63 wrote:It is intention that I call deeds.
Cetanāhaṃ, bhikkhave, kammaṃ vadāmi.

For after making a choice one acts
Cetayitvā kammaṃ karoti—

by way of body, speech, and mind.
kāyena vācāya manasā.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/sujato
"Kayena" means "performed by the body" or "the body used as an instrument".

In Pali, if you are going to say: "I use my body for swimming", the word for "body" will be "kayena" rather than "kaya".

:alien:
kāyena means bodily. It refers to finished action what is happening in the present/ditthi.
in short:
There is no mano/intelligent there. Case subject is figurative.

it happen after contact, it is like a post traumatic stress disorder, you are triggered into do something which manifest from inside as bodily, in contrast it is not about using body as an instrument, it is coming within.

The five cords of sensuality. Bodily incentive is kamaraga or in and out breath.

frank k
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Re: What is kayena ?

Post by frank k » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:03 pm

sentinel wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:35 am
Some translation is body , some translated as Personal ?!
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... al-b.html
excerpt:
Contradiction!
From the first passage on awakening factors, Sujato's idiosyncratic translation of vitakka and vicara as "placing the mind" assures us he believes the 7 awakening factors are referring to the very same state of samadhi as the 4 jhanas.

But look under his passaddhi translation, Tranquility clearly has a physical and mental component, by his own translation.
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