Dhatu and ayatana

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sentinel
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Dhatu and ayatana

Post by sentinel » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:17 am

What are the main difference between both ? Can (bāhirāni) ayatana (ie the external domain) be similar with dhatu ?
:coffee:

SarathW
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Re: Dhatu and ayatana

Post by SarathW » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:58 am

āyatana: 1. 'spheres', is a name for the four immaterial absorptions; s. jhāna (5-8). 2. The 12 'bases' or 'sources' on which depend the mental processes, consist of five physical sense-organs and consciousness, being the six personal (ajjhattika) bases; and the six objects, the so-called external (bāhira) bases - namely:

eye, or visual organ visible object

ear, or auditory organ sound, or audible object

nose, or olfactory organ odour, or olfactive object

tongue, or gustatory organ taste, or gustative object

body, or tactile organ body-impression, or tactile object

mind-base, or consciousness mind-object

(manāyatana) (dhammāyatana)



"By the visual organ (cakkhāyatana) is meant the sensitive part of the eye (cakkhu-pasāda) built up of the four elements ... responding to sense-stimuli" (sa-ppaṭigha).... (Vibh. II). Similar is the explanation of the four remaining physical sense-organs.

Mind-base (manāyatana) is a collective term for all consciousness whatever, and should therefore not be confounded with the mind-element (mano-dhātu; s. dhātu II, 16), which latter performs only the functions of adverting (āvajjana) to the sense-object, and of receiving (sampaṭicchana) the sense-object. On the functions of the mind, s. viññāṇa-kicca.

The visible object (rūpāyatana) is described in Vibh. II as "that phenomenon which is built up of the four physical elements and appears as color, etc." What is' seen by-visual perception, i.e. by eye-consciousness (cakkhu-viññāṇa) are colors and differences of light, but not three dimensional bodily things.

'Mind-object-base' (dhammāyatana) is identical with 'mind-object-element' (dhamma-dhātu; s. dhātu II) and dhammārammaṇa (s. ārammaṇa). It may be physical or mental, past, present or future, real or imaginary.

The 5 physical sense-organs are also called faculties (indriya, q.v.), and of these faculties it is said in M. 43: "Each of the five faculties owns a different sphere, and none of them partakes of the sphere of another one; ... they have mind as their support... are conditioned by vitality, ... but vitality again is conditioned by heat, heat again by vitality, just as the light and flame of a burning lamp are mutually conditioned."

The 12 bases are fully discussed in Vis.M. XV. In Yam III (s Guide, p 98f) the 12 terms are subjected to a logical investigation The six personal bases form the 5th link of dependent origination (paṭiccasamuppāda 5, q.v.).


https://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm
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DooDoot
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Re: Dhatu and ayatana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:33 am

sentinel wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:17 am
What are the main difference between both ? Can (bāhirāni) ayatana (ie the external domain) be similar with dhatu ?
MN 115 includes each ayatana (external & internal) as a dhatu, as follows:
There are, Ānanda, these eighteen elements: the elements of the eye, sights, and eye consciousness; the ear, sounds, and ear consciousness; the nose, smells, and nose consciousness; the tongue, tastes, and tongue consciousness; the body, touches, and body consciousness; the mind, thoughts, and mind consciousness.

There are these six elements: the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space, and consciousness.

There are these six elements: the elements of pleasure, pain, happiness, sadness, equanimity, and ignorance.

There are these six elements: the elements of sensuality and renunciation, malice and good will, and cruelty and harmlessness.

There are these three elements: the elements of the sensual realm, the realm of luminous form, and the formless realm.

There are these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element.

https://suttacentral.net/mn115/en/sujato
MN 115 also refers to the ayatana:
There are these six interior and exterior sense fields: the eye and sights, the ear and sounds, the nose and smells, the tongue and tastes, the body and touches, and the mind and thoughts. When a mendicant knows and sees these six interior and exterior sense fields, they’re qualified to be called ‘skilled in the sense fields’.

https://suttacentral.net/mn115/en/sujato
Borrowing & using two general words from Western philosophy, the difference between dhatu & ayatana might possibly be: (i) dhatu is similar to 'ontology'; and (ii) ayatana is similar to 'phenomenology'.

:smile:
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sentinel
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Re: Dhatu and ayatana

Post by sentinel » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:53 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:33 am
sentinel wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:17 am
What are the main difference between both ? Can (bāhirāni) ayatana (ie the external domain) be similar with dhatu ?
MN 115 includes each ayatana (external & internal) as a dhatu, as follows:
There are, Ānanda, these eighteen elements: the elements of the eye, sights, and eye consciousness; the ear, sounds, and ear consciousness; the nose, smells, and nose consciousness; the tongue, tastes, and tongue consciousness; the body, touches, and body consciousness; the mind, thoughts, and mind consciousness.

There are these six elements: the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space, and consciousness.

There are these six elements: the elements of pleasure, pain, happiness, sadness, equanimity, and ignorance.

There are these six elements: the elements of sensuality and renunciation, malice and good will, and cruelty and harmlessness.

There are these three elements: the elements of the sensual realm, the realm of luminous form, and the formless realm.

There are these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element.

https://suttacentral.net/mn115/en/sujato
MN 115 also refers to the ayatana:
There are these six interior and exterior sense fields: the eye and sights, the ear and sounds, the nose and smells, the tongue and tastes, the body and touches, and the mind and thoughts. When a mendicant knows and sees these six interior and exterior sense fields, they’re qualified to be called ‘skilled in the sense fields’.

https://suttacentral.net/mn115/en/sujato
Borrowing & using two general words from Western philosophy, the difference between dhatu & ayatana might possibly be: (i) dhatu is similar to 'ontology'; and (ii) ayatana is similar to 'phenomenology'.

:smile:
Great , this shed some light . I supposed ontology appear to say something about us as a being . Phenomenology referring to something experiential or empirical knowledge .

Do you find properties or nature or feature probably describe dhatu better ?

Thanks
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DooDoot
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Re: Dhatu and ayatana

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:06 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:53 am
Do you find properties or nature or feature probably describe dhatu better ?
Thank you. I prefer "element" because it is similar to the modern science concept of "elements". "Element" sounds appropriately "reductionist" & "impersonal" to me. Regards
reductionist - break complex theories into simple, smaller parts
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auto
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Re: Dhatu and ayatana

Post by auto » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:57 pm

dhatu and ayatana is in this,

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.12/en/sujato
‘Consciousness is a fuel that conditions rebirth into a new state of existence in the future. When that which has been reborn is present, there are the six sense fields. The six sense fields are a condition for contact.’”
‘viññāṇāhāro āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbattiyā paccayo, tasmiṃ bhūte sati saḷāyatanaṃ, saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso’”ti.
.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.34/en/sujato
Any deed that emerges from greed—born, sourced, and originated from greed—ripens where that new life-form is born.
Yaṃ, bhikkhave, lobhapakataṃ kammaṃ lobhajaṃ lobhanidānaṃ lobhasamudayaṃ, yatthassa attabhāvo nibbattati tattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati.

And wherever that deed ripens, its result is experienced—either in the present life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period.
Yattha taṃ kammaṃ vipaccati tattha tassa kammassa vipākaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti, diṭṭhe vā dhamme upapajja vā apare vā pariyāye.
deed ripens is 'contact' and result experienced is 'feeling'.

https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato
“‘This person has six elements, six fields of contact, and eighteen mental preoccupations.“‘Cha dhāturo ayaṃ, bhikkhu, puriso cha phassāyatano aṭṭhārasa manopavicāro caturādhiṭṭhāno;
https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato
Supported by the six elements, an embryo is conceived.
Channaṃ, bhikkhave, dhātūnaṃ upādāya gabbhassāvakkanti hoti;
When it is conceived, there are name and form. okkantiyā sati nāmarūpaṃ
Name and form are conditions for the six sense fields..
.supported(feeds) by the six elements the embryo(rebirth into a new state of existence in the future) [trying to fit here the info from sn12.12]
It’s for one who feels that I declare: ‘This is suffering’..Vediyamānassa kho panāhaṃ, bhikkhave, idaṃ dukkhanti paññapemi..
possible interpretation:

At first there is consciousness what feeds the future existence then the 'what was being fed' becomes or appears, there will be contact-fields apparent and the being will get old and as a result will experience feelings.

contact-->feeling. Contact makes feelings apparent, but the feelings are there because of rebirth(ayatanas) and old age. hmm

aren't human body a sense field, logically it is, you touch skin and it gives a sensation, hence a sense field?

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Re: Dhatu and ayatana

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:25 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:17 am
What are the main difference between both ? Can (bāhirāni) ayatana (ie the external domain) be similar with dhatu ?
There are several classifications. I would recommend browsing MN140 for an overview.
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato

Basically sense-experience is derived from the four great elements, ie earth, water, wind and fire. These are the basis for internal and external ayatana.
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