pubbenivāsa

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
Post Reply
auto
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

pubbenivāsa

Post by auto » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:26 pm

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/pubbenivāsa
pubbenivāsaConcise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
pubbenivāsa:[m.] one's former state of existence.

opened thread.

Dinsdale
Posts: 6627
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: pubbenivāsa

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:51 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:26 pm
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/pubbenivāsa
pubbenivāsaConcise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
pubbenivāsa:[m.] one's former state of existence.

opened thread.
Another definition:
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/pubbenivasa

And the relevant sutta:
https://suttacentral.net/sn52.22/en/sujato
Buddha save me from new-agers!

auto
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: pubbenivāsa

Post by auto » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:10 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:51 pm
auto wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:26 pm
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/pubbenivāsa
pubbenivāsaConcise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
pubbenivāsa:[m.] one's former state of existence.

opened thread.
Another definition:
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/pubbenivasa

And the relevant sutta:
https://suttacentral.net/sn52.22/en/sujato
“… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I recollect my many kinds of past lives, with features and details.”
“Imesañca panāhaṃ, āvuso, catunnaṃ satipaṭṭhānānaṃ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā anekavihitaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ anussarāmi, seyyathidaṃ—ekampi jātiṃ dvepi jātiyo … pe … iti sākāraṃ sauddesaṃ anekavihitaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ anussarāmī”ti.
being mindful of aspect of body, feeling, mind and emptiness will result in recollecting many kinds of past lives.

my problem is what is 'past life'?

Dinsdale
Posts: 6627
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: pubbenivāsa

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:26 pm

auto wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:10 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:51 pm
auto wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:26 pm
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/pubbenivāsa




opened thread.
Another definition:
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/pubbenivasa

And the relevant sutta:
https://suttacentral.net/sn52.22/en/sujato
“… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that I recollect my many kinds of past lives, with features and details.”
“Imesañca panāhaṃ, āvuso, catunnaṃ satipaṭṭhānānaṃ bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā anekavihitaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ anussarāmi, seyyathidaṃ—ekampi jātiṃ dvepi jātiyo … pe … iti sākāraṃ sauddesaṃ anekavihitaṃ pubbenivāsaṃ anussarāmī”ti.
being mindful of aspect of body, feeling, mind and emptiness will result in recollecting many kinds of past lives.

my problem is what is 'past life'?
It's always useful to look at the context - have a look at the Sutta which follows SN52.22:
https://suttacentral.net/sn52.23/en/sujato

I've seen it suggested that pubbenivasa literally means "past abodes", and therefore doesn't mean actual past lives, as in previous births (despite "jati" appearing a couple of times in this passage).
IMO this is a silly argument, because I can remember my past abodes (places I used to live) right now. I don't need to be accomplished in satipatthana to recall my previous addresses! It looks like another attempt to airbrush rebirth out of the suttas.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5590
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: pubbenivāsa

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:12 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:26 pm
I don't need to be accomplished in satipatthana to recall my previous addresses!
Yes you do, according to SN 22.79: 8-)
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

When recollecting thus, bhikkhus: ‘I had such form in the past,’ it is just form that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a feeling in the past,’ it is just feeling that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a perception in the past,’ it is just perception that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such volitional formations in the past,’ it is just volitional formations that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such consciousness in the past,’ it is just consciousness that one recollects.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi
According to SN 22.79, it seems the mind must be able to view "past abodes" or "past self-clingings" as mere aggregates.

SN 22.79 continues:
Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever … Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’
:alien:
auto wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:26 pm
nivāsa
nivāsa
masculine
dress, clothing; an undergarment; wearing (an (under) garment)

Concise Pali English Dictionary
nivāsa
masculine
abode; resting place; living.

PTS Pali English Dictionary
nivāsa
stopping, dwelling, resting-place, abode; living, sheltering
New Concise Pali English Dictionary
nivesa
masculine

settlement; a dwelling-place, a house, a home.
settling (on or in), attachment (to); where one settles.
New Concise Pali English Dictionary
abhinivesa
masculine

devotion, adherence to, intentness on (loc); inclination (esp. to something bad); insistence, conviction (esp. of what is not true).
extension (in length or width).

Concise Pali English Dictionary
abhinivesa
masculine
inclination; tendency.

PTS Pali English Dictionary
abhinivesa
“settling in”, i.e. wishing for, tendency towards (-˚) inclination, adherence; as adj. liking, loving, being given or inclined to

https://suttacentral.net/define/abhinivesa
SN 22.3 wrote:The Realized One has given up any desire, greed, relishing, and craving for the form element; any attraction, grasping, mental fixation, insistence and underlying tendencies. He has cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it, so it’s unable to arise in the future.

Rūpadhātuyā kho, gahapati, yo chando yo rāgo yā nandī yā taṇhā ye upayupādānā cetaso adhiṭṭhānābhinivesānusayā te tathāgatassa pahīnā ucchinnamūlā tālāvatthukatā anabhāvaṃkatā āyatiṃ anuppādadhammā.

That’s why the Realized One is called a migrant without a shelter.
Tasmā tathāgato ‘anokasārī’ti vuccati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.3/en/sujato
:reading:
auto wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:26 pm
jātiyo
https://suttacentral.net/define/j%C4%81tiya

being of such a kind, of such a class; ? or type of birth, class, lineage; ?
Angulimala wrote:Ever since I was born in the noble birth, sister, I don’t recall having intentionally taken the life of a living creature. By this truth, may both you and your baby be safe.”
“yatohaṃ, bhagini, ariyāya jātiyā jāto, nābhijānāmi sañcicca pāṇaṃ jīvitā voropetā, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn86/en/sujato
:reading:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:31 am, edited 11 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 2707
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: pubbenivāsa

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:17 am

DooDoot wrote: it seems the mind must be able to view "past abodes" as mere aggregates.
you're afraid of endless rebirth, this is good, it's why we practice

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5590
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: pubbenivāsa

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:32 am

cappuccino wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:17 am
you're afraid of endless rebirth, this is good, it's why we practice
you're afraid of ending birth, this is not good, it's not why we practice

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 2707
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: pubbenivāsa

Post by cappuccino » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
cappuccino wrote: you're afraid of endless rebirth, this is good, it's why we practice
you're afraid of ending birth
I'm fine with ending birth

Dinsdale
Posts: 6627
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: pubbenivāsa

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:33 am

I did a search on Sutta Central, and it's clear that pubbenivasa refers to one of the three knowledges.
https://suttacentral.net/search?query=Pubbenivasa

See for example AN10.102, with its cosmic time scales:. "A hundred thousand rebirths.... many eons of the world contracting and expanding...".
https://suttacentral.net/an10.102/en/sujato

It is what it is. If you don't like it, then just put it to one, side.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5590
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: pubbenivāsa

Post by DooDoot » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:38 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:33 am
"A hundred thousand rebirths, many eons of contraction...".
Meaningless English words, getting kookier, with even worse translations. The seems the meaning is explained in SN 22.79, which, similar to "satta", you appear to choose to deny. :)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

auto
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: pubbenivāsa

Post by auto » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:29 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:26 pm
It's always useful to look at the context - have a look at the Sutta which follows SN52.22:
https://suttacentral.net/sn52.23/en/sujato

I've seen it suggested that pubbenivasa literally means "past abodes", and therefore doesn't mean actual past lives, as in previous births (despite "jati" appearing a couple of times in this passage).
IMO this is a silly argument, because I can remember my past abodes (places I used to live) right now. I don't need to be accomplished in satipatthana to recall my previous addresses! It looks like another attempt to airbrush rebirth out of the suttas.
https://suttacentral.net/sn6.13/en/sujato
Within a single spiritual dispensation Ekasmiṃ brahmacariyasmiṃ,
a thousand are destroyers of Death. sahassaṃ maccuhāyinaṃ.

And of trainees there are more than five hundred, Bhiyyo pañcasatā sekkhā,
and ten times ten tens; dasā ca dasadhā dasa;
all are stream-enterers, Sabbe sotasamāpannā,
freed from rebirth in the animal realm. atiracchānagāmino.
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
“But how is there rebirth into a new state of existence in the future?” “Kathaṃ panāvuso, āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti hotī”ti?

“It’s because of sentient beings—hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving—taking pleasure in various different realms. “Avijjānīvaraṇānaṃ kho, āvuso, sattānaṃ taṇhāsaṃyojanānaṃ tatratatrābhinandanā—
That’s how there is rebirth into a new state of existence in the future.” evaṃ āyatiṃ punabbhavābhinibbatti hotī”ti.
satta is what is taking pleasure in various different existences because of craving.

by some sort of action there are many satta taking pleasure in different realms because of fetters of craving they have.
if you do brahmacariya then at that instance there will be many who have conquered death..

https://suttacentral.net/sn6.10/en/sujato
Then the mendicant Kokālika died of that illness. Atha kho kokāliko bhikkhu teneva ābādhena kālamakāsi.
He was reborn in the Pink Lotus hell because of his resentment for Sāriputta and Moggallāna. Kālaṅkato ca kokāliko bhikkhu padumaṃ nirayaṃ upapajji sāriputtamoggallānesu cittaṃ āghātetvā.
i think when you do something then by your actions you produce jivas what are many, volumes higher in numbers than before deed. Having resentment for Sari.. then its strong energy enough to pull you to that realm and need stay there till the pulling energy is used up to the point you can end the rebirthing in that realm.

https://suttacentral.net/sn52.23/en/sujato
“… And it’s because of developing and cultivating these four kinds of mindfulness meditation that, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, I understand how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds.”
by a deed millions are born and are thirsty, these are collectively called attabhava what try to force you to make another action by that they grow in numbers, since you feed them and they multiply and grow.

whilst sabbath grows the numbers of devas.

https://suttacentral.net/sa-2.46/en/bingenheimer
If, however, there are human beings in the world who always practice filial piety, make offerings to renunciants and brāhmaṇas, and so on …, and many who keep the precepts, then the four guardian kings go up and report this to Sakka. Then the devas are very much delighted and all say: ‘The human beings in the world are acting in a wholesome way. They are indeed wise and good and doing what they should do. The number of devas will grow, and the number of asuras will decrease.’

auto
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: pubbenivāsa

Post by auto » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:53 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:12 am
https://suttacentral.net/define/j%C4%81tiya

being of such a kind, of such a class; ? or type of birth, class, lineage; ?

Angulimala wrote:Ever since I was born in the noble birth, sister, I don’t recall having intentionally taken the life of a living creature. By this truth, may both you and your baby be safe.”
“yatohaṃ, bhagini, ariyāya jātiyā jāto, nābhijānāmi sañcicca pāṇaṃ jīvitā voropetā, tena saccena sotthi te hotu, sotthi gabbhassā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/mn86/en/sujato
well yes,

https://suttacentral.net/sn6.3/en/sujato
Then Venerable Brahmadeva, living alone, withdrawn, diligent, keen, and resolute, soon realized the supreme end of the spiritual path in this very life. He lived having achieved with his own insight the goal for which gentlemen rightly go forth from the lay life to homelessness.
He understood: “Rebirth is ended; the spiritual journey has been completed; what had to be done has been done; there is no return to any state of existence.”
And Venerable Brahmadeva became one of the perfected. Aññataro ca panāyasmā brahmadevo arahataṃ ahosi.
no return to any state o existence
Then Brahmadeva robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, entered Sāvatthī for alms.
Atha kho āyasmā brahmadevo pubbaṇhasamayaṃ nivāsetvā pattacīvaramādāya sāvatthiṃ piṇḍāya pāvisi.
pubbaṇhasamayaṃ nivāsetvā

hmmm

it makes sense, you will have noble birth and no return to existence where is killing.
“Far from here is the Brahmā realm, madam, “Dūre ito brāhmaṇi brahmaloko,
to which you offer a regular oblation. Yassāhutiṃ paggaṇhāsi niccaṃ;
But Brahmā doesn’t eat that kind of food. Netādiso brāhmaṇi brahmabhakkho,
Why make invocations, when you don’t know the path to Brahmā? Kiṃ jappasi brahmapathaṃ ajānaṃ.
imo you do japa and follow path to open the portal to brahma realm and get birth there and will not return from there while tho still having physical body here.

Or perhaps bowl and robe and Savatthi aren't literal things and places, but parable?

auto
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: pubbenivāsa

Post by auto » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:12 pm

https://suttacentral.net/mn123/en/sujato
‘When the being intent on awakening is conceived in his mother’s belly, no afflictions beset her. She’s happy and free of bodily fatigue. ‘yadā, ānanda, bodhisatto mātukucchiṃ okkanto hoti, na bodhisattamātu kocideva ābādho uppajjati; sukhinī bodhisattamātā hoti akilantakāyā;
‘Seven days after the being intent on awakening is born, his mother passes away and is reborn in the host of Joyful Gods.’ ‘sattāhajāte, ānanda, bodhisatte bodhisattamātā kālaṃ karoti, tusitaṃ kāyaṃ upapajjatī’ti.

so the sukha is from what you know that beings mother(you can call being into your body?) when die will born in tusita heaven. Quite straightforward. My question is is this clear seeing?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 12 guests