sakkāya-diṭṭhi

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auto
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sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:37 pm

https://suttacentral.net/mn65/en/sujato
Suppose I was to say the same thing to a mendicant who is freed by wisdom, idhassa bhikkhu paññāvimutto …
or a personal witness, kāyasakkhi …
or attained to view, diṭṭhippatto …
or freed by faith, saddhāvimutto …
or a follower of the teachings, dhammānusārī …
or a follower by faith: saddhānusārī, tamahaṃ evaṃ vadeyyaṃ:
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/sakkhi
sakkhiPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Sakkhi,1 [sa3+akkhin; cp.Sk.sākṣin] an eyewitness D.II,237 (Nom.sg.sakkhī=with his own eyes,as an eyewitness); Sn.479,921,934 (sakkhi dhammaṁ adassi,where the corresp.Sk.form would be sākṣād); J.I,74.-- kāya-sakkhī a bodily witness,i.e.one who has bodily experienced the 8 vimokkhas A.IV,451; Vism.93,387,659.-- sakkhiṁ karoti [Sk.sākṣī karoti] (1) to see with one’s own eyes S.II,255; (2) to call upon as a witness (with Gen.of person) J.VI,280 (rājāno); DhA.II,69 (Moggallānassa sakkhiṁ katvā); PvA.217 (but at 241 as “friendship”).Note.The P.form is rather to be taken as an adv.(“as present”) than adj.:sakkhiṁ & sakkhi,with reduced sakkhi° (cp.sakid & sakiṁ).See also sacchi°.

--diṭṭha seen face to face M.I,369; D.I,238; J.VI,233.--puṭṭha asked as a witness Sn.84,122; Pug.29.--bhabbatā the state of becoming an eyewitness,of experiencing M.I,494; DhsA.141.--sāvaka a contemporaneous or personal disciple D.II,153.(Page 661)
i think the translation of "belief in a self" is off the mark,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)
belief in a self (Pali: sakkāya-diṭṭhi)[7]

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mikenz66
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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:41 pm

It may be useful to read Bhikkhu Analayo's https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... alayo.html Encyclopedia article:
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... ditthi.pdf

I'm not the Pali expert you're looking for, but you appear to be confusing sakkāya with sakkhi.

:heart:
Mike

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:11 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:41 pm
It may be useful to read Bhikkhu Analayo's https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... alayo.html Encyclopedia article:
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... ditthi.pdf

I'm not the Pali expert you're looking for, but you appear to be confusing sakkāya with sakkhi.

:heart:
Mike
https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato

sakkaya is upadanakhandha,
Visākha, the Buddha said that these five grasping aggregates are identity. “Pañca kho ime, āvuso visākha, upādānakkhandhā sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā,
origin of sakkaya is tanha,
What is the origin of identity that the Buddha spoke of?” Katamo nu kho, ayye, sakkāyasamudayo vutto bhagavatā”ti?
“It’s the craving that leads to future rebirth, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure in various different realms. That is, “Yāyaṃ, āvuso visākha, taṇhā ponobbhavikā nandīrāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ—
craving for sensual pleasures, craving to continue existence, and craving to end existence. kāmataṇhā bhavataṇhā vibhavataṇhā;
cessation of sakkaya is fading away of that tanha,
“It’s the fading away and cessation of that very same craving with nothing left over; giving it away, letting it go, releasing it, and not adhering to it. “Yo kho, āvuso visākha, tassāyeva taṇhāya asesavirāganirodho cāgo paṭinissaggo mutti anālayo;
The Buddha said that this is the cessation of identity.” ayaṃ kho, āvuso visākha, sakkāyanirodho vutto bhagavatā”ti.
chandarāga is the upadana in upadanakhandha,
The desire and greed for the five grasping aggregates is the grasping there.” Yo kho, āvuso visākha, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu chandarāgo taṃ tattha upādānan”ti.
sakkaya ditthi comes about when regarding khandhas as atta, (in case of uneducated ordinary person)
“But ma’am, how does identity view come about?” “Kathaṃ panāyye, sakkāyadiṭṭhi hotī”ti?
..
They regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form. rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā rūpaṃ, rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.
and sakkaya ditthi doesn't come about when not regarding khandhas as atta, (incase of noble disciple)
“But ma’am, how does identity view not come about?” “Kathaṃ panāyye, sakkāyadiṭṭhi na hotī”ti?
..
They don’t regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form. na rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, na rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, na attani vā rūpaṃ, na rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.
regarding khandhas as self means it is beyond your grasp, its what you are, its what means being fettered. Not seeing the atta is hindrance you can't get to further paths without the sense of self.

sakkaya doesn't cease with the first path fetter removal. Can you get access to upadanakhandha? notice chanda/impusle will wish?

cat sees a mouse the killer instinct comes out, the cat changes from lazy pet into a hunter. Cat doesn't know about the hunter mode, cat is unaware. And someone witnessing it with sensitivity can sense the chandaraga in cat and is having that mode on.

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:24 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:41 pm
I'm not the Pali expert you're looking for, but you appear to be confusing sakkāya with sakkhi.

:heart:
Mike
https://suttacentral.net/mn70/en/sujato
Mendicants, these seven people are found in the world. Sattime, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṃvijjamānā lokasmiṃ.
What seven? Katame satta?
One freed both ways, one freed by wisdom, a personal witness, one attained to view, one freed by faith, a follower of the teachings, and a follower by faith. Ubhatobhāgavimutto, paññāvimutto, kāyasakkhi, diṭṭhippatto, saddhāvimutto, dhammānusārī, saddhānusārī.
kāyasakkhi and the other person diṭṭhippatto just reminds me sakkāya-diṭṭhi.

both are related about realizing the goal by your own insight. Good people decide to go from lay-life to homelessness because of to realize the same thing.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.169/en/sujato
And how does a person become fully extinguished in the present life by making extra effort? Kathañca, bhikkhave, puggalo diṭṭheva dhamme sasaṅkhāraparinibbāyī hoti?
that person is an upadanakhandha what comes extinguished? and the sakkāya-diṭṭhi is the fetter when you think khandha is your self?


so the "belief in a self" is a bit lack of important detail, what is the self here, the self here is the khandha which is not your self but you think it is because of chandaraga.

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:43 pm

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato
They regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form.
rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā rūpaṃ, rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.
The form you see is hindered/covered by the self delusion layer. It is a layer what is to be removed, dissolved, that is done by using form-seeing.
Vedanaṃ..
feelings are compressed beforehand by ourselves(by some covet action maybe), when contact come there arise feeling what is known by 'mana'.
perception … saññaṃ …
because of investments the perception is peculiar.


other words its about nouns and cases. And what is phenomena to be noticed.
choices … saṅkhāre …
possibilities because of many immaterial desires. Having something to do gears up satisfaction without even doing any of these things.
viññāṇaṃ
knowing oneself still being the first, living with that feeling a long time which in truth is just a deception.

auto
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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:58 pm

https://suttacentral.net/an10.58/en/sujato
‘Reverends, all things are rooted in desire.
Attention produces them.
Contact is their origin.
Feeling is their meeting place.
Immersion is their chief.
Mindfulness is their ruler.
Wisdom is their overseer.
Freedom is their core.
They culminate in the deathless.
And extinguishment is their final end.’ ‘
chandamūlakā, āvuso, sabbe dhammā,
manasikārasambhavā sabbe dhammā,
phassasamudayā sabbe dhammā,
vedanāsamosaraṇā sabbe dhammā,
samādhippamukhā sabbe dhammā,
satādhipateyyā sabbe dhammā,
paññuttarā sabbe dhammā,
vimuttisārā sabbe dhammā,
amatogadhā sabbe dhammā,
nibbānapariyosānā sabbe dhammā’ti.
When questioned by wanderers who follow other paths, that’s how you should answer them.” Evaṃ puṭṭhā tumhe, bhikkhave, tesaṃ aññatitthiyānaṃ paribbājakānaṃ evaṃ byākareyyāthā”ti.
sabbe dhamma are the beings with different morals, manasikarabhava is the attabhava. By contact the attabhava gets in and by feelings you will feel the chemistry there. Nibbana is the final end as of the kamma of that desire is fulfilled and no more future birth.

all beings, sabbe dhamme are not you. When you come aware and are mindful you are their ruler.


I think you are a "buddha" who should lead beings to nibbana what are in your mindstream kammically. Therefore when you are with beings what are subject to rebirth so then will you too become subject to rebirth.

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by thomaslaw » Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:19 am

sakkāya means 'personality', according to Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 39-40. So, sakkāya-diṭṭhi is personality-view. It is linked to the attachment, craving to self (atta) or of anything belonging to self with each of the five aggregates.

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:28 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:19 am
sakkāya means 'personality', according to Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 39-40. So, sakkāya-diṭṭhi is personality-view. It is linked to the attachment, craving to self (atta) or of anything belonging to self with each of the five aggregates.
greed/chandaraga is upādāna in upādānakhadha

hate/ill-will arises, hate is a being what arises from greed. greed is sukha feeling, from that sukha feeling dukkha is insisted.

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... -Pairs.htm
“Akkocchi maṁ, avadhi maṁ, ajini maṁ, ahāsi me”,
“He abused me, he struck at me, he overcame me, he robbed me,”
that above is not sad-mindedness, but is hatred.
ye ca taṁ upanayhanti veraṁ tesaṁ na sammati. [3]
those who bear ill-will towards this their hatred is never appeased.

“Akkocchi maṁ, avadhi maṁ, ajini maṁ, ahāsi me”,
“He abused me, he struck at me, he overcame me, he robbed me,”
ye taṁ na upanayhanti veraṁ tesūpasammati. [4]
those who do not bear ill-will towards this their hatred is appeased.

sad-mindedness is for someone who is secluded and given up greed:

https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato
‘Oh, when will I enter and remain in the same dimension that the noble ones enter and remain in today?’
‘kudāssu nāmāhaṃ tadāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharissāmi yadariyā etarahi āyatanaṃ upasampajja viharantī’ti?
Nursing such a longing for the supreme liberations gives rise to sadness due to longing.
Iti anuttaresu vimokkhesu pihaṃ upaṭṭhāpayato uppajjati pihāppaccayā domanassaṃ.
is it personality? could be, sad-minded persons are shut-ins, introverts whatever name is put to them, when people take personality tests i think they think it is something permanent oh i am introvert..while it could be actually mean that person lacks greed and ambitions in certain situations..(idk just guessing) and no clue how to get to upekkha by means of cessation.

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:14 am

It seems better to see why the term personality 'sakkāya' is being used with the notion of craving 'tanha', delight and desire 'nandi-raga', leading to dukkha (e.g. SN 22.103, 105).

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:58 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:14 am
It seems better to see why the term personality 'sakkāya' is being used with the notion of craving 'tanha', delight and desire 'nandi-raga', leading to dukkha (e.g. SN 22.103, 105).


taṇhā seem to be the origin of sakkāya.
If i want to get something, then that something comes sakkaya - something functional in my mind. A sankhara regards to what feelings can arise!?

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.103/en/sujato
And what is the side of the origin of identity? Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sakkāyasamudayanto?
It’s the craving that leads to future lives, mixed up with relishing and greed, taking pleasure in various different realms. That is,
Yāyaṃ taṇhā ponobhavikā nandirāgasahagatā tatratatrābhinandinī, seyyathidaṃ—
craving for sensual pleasures, craving to continue existence, and craving to end existence.
kāmataṇhā, bhavataṇhā, vibhavataṇhā.

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:40 pm

https://suttacentral.net/an4.200/en/sujato
And how does a mendicant draw close?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu usseneti?

It’s when a mendicant regards form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā rūpaṃ, rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ;
They regard feeling as self, self as having feeling, feeling in self, or self in feeling.
vedanaṃ attato samanupassati, vedanāvantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā vedanaṃ, vedanāya vā attānaṃ;
..
And how does a mendicant not draw close?
Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu na usseneti?

It’s when a mendicant doesn’t regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu na rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, na rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, na attani vā rūpaṃ, na rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ;
They don’t regard feeling as self, self as having feeling, feeling in self, or self in feeling.
na vedanaṃ attato samanupassati, na vedanāvantaṃ vā attānaṃ, na attani vā vedanaṃ, na vedanāya vā attānaṃ;

compare with,

https://suttacentral.net/iti49/en/ireland
“Bhikkhus, held by two kinds of views, some devas and
human beings hold back and some overreach; only those with vision see.
“And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back? Devas and humans enjoy being, delight in being, are satisfied with being. When Dhamma is taught to them for the cessation of being, their minds do not enter into it or acquire confidence in it or settle upon it or become resolved upon it. Thus, bhikkhus, do some hold back.
“How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed, and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: ‘In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death—this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!’ Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach.
the point is it is not digital only two possibilities 0 or 1 that there is no self or self.
“How, bhikkhus, do those with vision see? Herein a bhikkhu sees what has come to be as having come to be. Having seen it thus, he practises the course for turning away, for dispassion, for the cessation of what has come to be. Thus, bhikkhus, do those with vision see.”
https://suttacentral.net/an4.200/en/sujato
And how does a mendicant burn up? Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sampajjhāyati?
It’s when a mendicant hasn’t given up the conceit ‘I am’, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it, so it’s unable to arise in the future. Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno asmimāno pahīno na hoti ucchinnamūlo tālāvatthukato anabhāvaṅkato āyatiṃ anuppādadhammo.
That’s how a mendicant is burned up. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sampajjhāyati.

And how does a mendicant not burn up? Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu na sampajjhāyati?
It’s when a mendicant has given up the conceit ‘I am’, cut it off at the root, made it like a palm stump, obliterated it, so it’s unable to arise in the future. Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno asmimāno pahīno hoti ucchinnamūlo tālāvatthukato anabhāvaṅkato āyatiṃ anuppādadhammo.
That’s how a mendicant is not burned up.” Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu na sampajjhāyatī”ti.
person who denies or says there is no self can have a conceit. So there has to be vision of what has come to be and those other steps:

https://suttacentral.net/iti49/en/ireland
Having seen what has come to be
As having come to be,
Passing beyond what has come to be,
They are released in accordance with truth
By exhausting the craving for being.

When a bhikkhu has fully understood
That which has come to be as such,
Free from craving to be this or that,
By the extinction of what has come to be
He comes no more to renewal of being.

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by ToVincent » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:31 pm

Although this word does not exist in Sanskrit, Sakkāya could be decomposed as follows:

sak (√ शक् śak) + Ka + iya

lit. "to be able (to be like) what belongs to Ka" (where Ka is the other name for the god Prajāpati [made selves])
॰ईय -īya forms possesives in Sanskrit.
& sak means "to be able to".

Ka is the continuous self, whose major quality is to be blissful.

Prajāpati
Lord of creatures
praja (creatures) + pati (lord)

In ŚBr. 4.5.9.2 Prajāpati is the Self - a Self that wants to become more than one, and desires to reproduce (selves) > ŚBr. 6.1.1.8.
______

Some extracts from suttas with parallels:
https://justpaste.it/191nd
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

auto
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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by auto » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:27 am

Sutta from your link

https://justpaste.it/191nd
‘The near shore, which is dangerous and fearful’: this is a designation for identity with self view.
Orimaṃ tīraṃ sāsaṅkaṃ sappaṭibhayanti kho, bhikkhave, sakkāyassetaṃ adhivacanaṃ.
SN 35.238
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.238/en/sujato
‘The near shore that’s dubious and perilous’ is a term for identity. Orimaṃ tīraṃ sāsaṅkaṃ sappaṭibhayanti kho, bhikkhave, sakkāyassetaṃ adhivacanaṃ.

‘The far shore, a sanctuary free of peril’ is a term for extinguishment. Pārimaṃ tīraṃ khemaṃ appaṭibhayanti kho, bhikkhave, nibbānassetaṃ adhivacanaṃ.

‘The raft’ is a term for the noble eightfold path, that is: Kullanti kho, bhikkhave, ariyassetaṃ aṭṭhaṅgikassa maggassa adhivacanaṃ, seyyathidaṃ
between regarding khandhas as self and not regarding khandhas as self there is 8 fold path.


The assertion on non-being, annihilation of being after death of a body is wrong support for claiming freedom and peacefulness in this life. I think this point also covers the 'death of a ego or personality' if the break up of a body is meant as psychological happening. -->

https://suttacentral.net/iti49/en/ireland
“How, bhikkhus, do some overreach? Now some are troubled, ashamed, and disgusted by this very same being and they rejoice in (the idea of) non-being, asserting: ‘In as much as this self, good sirs, when the body perishes at death, is annihilated and destroyed and does not exist after death—this is peaceful, this is excellent, this is reality!’ Thus, bhikkhus, do some overreach.

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:01 pm

auto wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:28 pm
... greed is sukha feeling ...
Greed is not a feeling.
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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Re: sakkāya-diṭṭhi

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:11 pm

auto wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:24 pm
.... the self here is the khandha which is not your self but you think it is because of chandaraga.

  • Not because of chandaraga.
  • But because of sakkāya-diṭṭhi.
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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