Anicca

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ToVincent
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Re: Anicca

Post by ToVincent » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:28 pm

auto wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:32 pm
...
Sorry, I should have said vipariṇam, instead of vipariṇa.
vi-pari-nam; with [p. p. vipariṇāta] and [act. vipariṇāma].

It is good to bring that particular vipariṇam case.
"Change" is a late Vedântas meaning.
the √ नम् nam means to ward off (prevent from happening) RV.
In our case, the closest Buddhist meaning for pariṇam is ripen, mature (ŚvetUp.).
When form has passed, ceased, and not ripened, its designation, label, and description is ‘was’.
Yaṃ, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ atītaṃ niruddhaṃ vipariṇataṃ ‘ahosī’ti tassa saṅkhā, ‘ahosī’ti tassa samaññā, ‘ahosī’ti tassa paññatti.
SN 22.62


So vipariṇam means "that does not ripen". That "prevents from (fully) happening".
And that is more in line with what might be the real meaning of khandhas, in these particular cases - where those khandhas get "sankharized" in Namarupa, to deliver dhammas to us, so to speak.
For khandhas "also" means:
खण्ड Khaṇḍa [obj. khaṇḍ]
- deficient , defective ŚāṅkhŚr.
- not full KātyŚr.
√ खण्ड् khaṇḍ
- to break , divide Dhātup.

Khandhas do'nt ripen - they don't sankharized to the full - they break apart (lujjati - RV. √रुज् ruj), and cause pain (the second meaning of lujjati in RV.).
_______

In another extract, the √ नम् nam means: to turn away (turn from a straight course or fixed direction) RV.
na ceva me cittaṃ vipariṇataṃ bhavissati
Neither will our minds turn from a straight course.
MN 21

_______

As far as the strict passage "aniccaṃ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi" is concerned, the all SN 25 in which it appears several times, does not have parallels. SN 35.93 neither.
So, I am not going to consider aññathābhāvi, if you may.
Please quote suttas with parallels, for Buddha's sake. That would be so nice.

On the other hand, there are several suttas with parallels, that address the "atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā" case (passed, ceased, and that have not ripened).
It would not be too logic to say "passed, ceased, and "changed").

Hope that helps.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

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auto
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Re: Anicca

Post by auto » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:03 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:28 pm
Sorry, I should have said vipariṇam, instead of vipariṇa.
vi-pari-nam; with [p. p. vipariṇāta] and [act. vipariṇāma].

It is good to bring that particular vipariṇam case.
"Change" is a late Vedântas meaning.
the √ नम् nam means to ward off (prevent from happening) RV.
In our case, the closest Buddhist meaning for pariṇam is ripen, mature (ŚvetUp.).
When form has passed, ceased, and not ripened, its designation, label, and description is ‘was’.
Yaṃ, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ atītaṃ niruddhaṃ vipariṇataṃ ‘ahosī’ti tassa saṅkhā, ‘ahosī’ti tassa samaññā, ‘ahosī’ti tassa paññatti.
SN 22.62

So vipariṇam means "that does not ripen". That "prevents from (fully) happening".
And that is more in line with what might be the real meaning of khandhas, in these particular cases - where those khandhas get "sankharized" in Namarupa, to deliver dhammas to us, so to speak.
For khandhas "also" means:
खण्ड Khaṇḍa [obj. khaṇḍ]
- deficient , defective ŚāṅkhŚr.
- not full KātyŚr.
√ खण्ड् khaṇḍ
- to break , divide Dhātup.

Khandhas do'nt ripen - they don't sankharized to the full - they break apart (lujjati - RV. √रुज् ruj), and cause pain (the second meaning of lujjati in RV.).
_______
"prevents from (fully) happening". It is pretty much opposite to what i said(worse, perverted), but i get it.. in different situation where anicca would mean insatiable.

oh you took "nam" as prevent from happening. What about vi-pari-nama? nevermind..that word doesn't exist.
ToVincent wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:28 pm
In another extract, the √ नम् nam means: to turn away (turn from a straight course or fixed direction) RV.
na ceva me cittaṃ vipariṇataṃ bhavissati
Neither will our minds turn from a straight course.
MN 21
ok, i see now the connection to worse, changed, perverted.
ToVincent wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:28 pm
When form has passed, ceased, and not ripened, its designation, label, and description is ‘was’.
Yaṃ, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ atītaṃ niruddhaṃ vipariṇataṃ ‘ahosī’ti tassa saṅkhā, ‘ahosī’ti tassa samaññā, ‘ahosī’ti tassa paññatti.
SN 22.62
niruddham in what way it mean ceased?
also word atītaṃ?

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/k/khaya
Khaya,[Sk.kṣaya to kṣi,kṣiṇoti & kṣiṇāti; cp.Lat.situs withering,Gr.fqiζis,fqi/nw,fqi/w wasting.See also khepeti under khipati] waste,destruction,consumption; decay,ruin,loss; of the passing away of night VvA.52; mostly in applied meaning with ref.to the extinction of passions & such elements as condition,life,& rebirth,e.g.āsavānaṁ kh.It.103 sq.,esp.in formula āsavānaṁ khayā anāsavaṁ cetovimuttiṁ upasampajja A.I,107= 221=D.III,78,108,132=It.100 and passim.-- rāgassa,dosassa,mohassa kh.M.I,5; A.I,299,cp.rāga°,dosa°,moha°,A.I,159; dosa° S.III,160,191; IV,250.-- taṇhānaṁ kh.Dh.154; saṅkhārānaṁ kh.Dh.383; sabbamaññitānaṁ,etc.M.I,486; āyu°,puñña° Vism.502.-- yo dukkhassa pajānāti idh’eva khayaṁ attano Sn.626=Dh.402; khayaṁ virāgaṁ amataṁ paṇītaṁ Sn.225.-- In exegesis of rūpassa aniccatā:rūpassa khayo vayo bhedo Dhs.645=738=872.-- See also khīṇa and the foll.cpds.s.v.:āyu°,upadhi°,upādāna°,jāti°,jīvita°,taṇha°,dukkha°,puñña°,bhava°,loka°,saṁyojana,sabbadhamma°,samudda°.

--âtīta (a) gone beyond,recovered from the waning period (of chanda,the moon=the new moon) Sn.598; --ânupassin (a) realizing the fact of decay A.IV,146 sq.= V.359 (+vayânupassin); --ñāṇa knowledge of the fact of decay M.II,38=Pug.60; in the same sense khaye ñāṇa Nett 15,54,59,127,191,cp.kvu 230 sq.; --dhamma the law of decay A.III,54; Ps.I,53,76,78.(Page 235)

auto
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Re: Anicca

Post by auto » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:15 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:28 pm
It is good to bring that particular vipariṇam case.
"Change" is a late Vedântas meaning.
the √ नम् nam means to ward off (prevent from happening) RV.
In our case, the closest Buddhist meaning for pariṇam is ripen, mature (ŚvetUp.).
When form has passed, ceased, and not ripened, its designation, label, and description is ‘was’.
Yaṃ, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ atītaṃ niruddhaṃ vipariṇataṃ ‘ahosī’ti tassa saṅkhā, ‘ahosī’ti tassa samaññā, ‘ahosī’ti tassa paññatti.
SN 22.62
SN22.62 i think talks about how you recognize khandhas.
Sankha- how you recognize khandhas when having these qualities atita, niruddha, viparinata then it is past, was.
ToVincent wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:28 pm
So vipariṇam means "that does not ripen". That "prevents from (fully) happening".
And that is more in line with what might be the real meaning of khandhas, in these particular cases - where those khandhas get "sankharized" in Namarupa, to deliver dhammas to us, so to speak.
For khandhas "also" means:
खण्ड Khaṇḍa [obj. khaṇḍ]
- deficient , defective ŚāṅkhŚr.
- not full KātyŚr.
√ खण्ड् khaṇḍ
- to break , divide Dhātup.

Khandhas do'nt ripen - they don't sankharized to the full - they break apart (lujjati - RV. √रुज् ruj), and cause pain (the second meaning of lujjati in RV.).
when you say "that does not ripen" it is raw. You are suggesting that the khandhas are unfinished. But i think sn22.62, atita, niruddha suggest doneness, finished, history it doesn't matter what state the khandha itself is- is it raw apple or ripe apple.
ToVincent wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:28 pm
In another extract, the √ नम् nam means: to turn away (turn from a straight course or fixed direction) RV.
na ceva me cittaṃ vipariṇataṃ bhavissati
Neither will our minds turn from a straight course.
MN 21
na ceva me cittaṃ vipariṇataṃ
imo it mean a-viparinatam
and therefore Sujato translation of unaffected is pretty inline with
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/v/vipariṇāma
-- a° absence of change,steadfastness D.I,18; III,31,33; DhA.I,121.(Page 626)
-
ToVincent wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:28 pm
On the other hand, there are several suttas with parallels, that address the "atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā" case (passed, ceased, and that have not ripened).
It would not be too logic to say "passed, ceased, and "changed").

Hope that helps.
it helps. But the "have not ripened" seem different to words passed and ceased.
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/atīta
Atīta,(adj.-n.) [Sk.atīta,ati + ita,pp.of i.Cp.accaya & ati eti] 1.(temporal) past,gone by (cp.accaya 1)
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/n/niruddha
Niruddha,(pp.) [pp.of nirundhati,cp.nirujjhati] expelled,destroyed; vanished,ceased S.III,112; Dhs.1038.(Page 370)
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/v/vipariṇāma
Vipariṇāma,[vi+pariṇāma] change (for the worse),reverse,vicissitude
the "nam" could be a grammatical case, suffix.

ToVincent
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Re: Anicca

Post by ToVincent » Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:15 pm

"Worse, perverted" are post-Buddhist meanings.
na ceva me cittaṃ vipariṇataṃ bhavissati
Neither will our minds turn from a straight course.
MN 21
In this case, √ नम् nam means: to turn away (turn from a straight course or fixed direction) RV.
Bodhi has translated it as "perverted". But that is not the correct meaning.
The literal translation is:
"will not become turned away (from its straight course)".
And yes, Sujato is closer to the real meaning, when he translates it as "unaffected".

______

You should rely on the PTS for the roots of the words, and make a bit of research on the Indian litterature of the time, to have a more accurate meanings. The Monier-Williams dictionary is a good way to start. Not always complete, but definitely very often correct.
Don't feed people with PTS' definitions that are often chronologically inaccurate; and then make up your own interpretation (as anicca would mean "insatiable"). You are just adding up a layer of inaccurateness.
Sorry to say.
Stick to what is more probable. We'll all benefit.
______

You've taken us to a dubious "aniccaṃ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi" (no parallels); but if we stick to the "atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā" case (with several parallels), we can realize that the khandhas (and their "sankharized" dhammas) do not ripen, they do'nt go to their full development (at least on an Upanishadic point of view).
They cease (niruddha: [pp.of nirujjhati] - √ रुध् rudh) and go by (atīta).

--------

Is "not ripening" a reason why there is anicca (as impermanence) ? - I suppose so.

--------

Now, to go back to the original post, one realizes that anicca as "not one's own", has little to do with the nature itself of the khandhas (and their subsequent "sankharized" dhammas).
The inherent nature of the khandhas is to be deficient - they are "not full". They break up before being completed. And so are the "sankharized" dhammas made out of them.
When you decompose 無常 (impermanence), it literally means "nonexistent (asat) permanence".
What exists for a while in us, does not mature to the point of being permanent. It breaks up before permanency.

To realize "anicca" as "impermanence" is to realize that.

To realize "anicca" as "not one's own", is to realize that these khandhas originate from the Nāmarūpa nidāna.
We are just "made to be felt" (SN 12.37). The internal ayatanas (fields of sensory experience) are defined as void, hollow, empty and "attacked" (SN 35.238) by these khandhas (dhammas).

To realize "anicca" as "not one's own" is to realize that.

One has to realize that the khandhas have an inherent nature of impermanence (anicca), and that they are not "one's own" (anicca).

In other words, what one experiences is not "one's own" experience; and that experience is impermanent by the intrinsic nature of the khandhas that Nāmarūpa nidāna feeds one with.

That's anicca in its broader sense.

-------

We are just here to say:
- I like it.
- I don't like it. (#2)
- I neither like it, nor dislike it.

The Nāmarūpa machine has no need to prolong our experience, I suppose.
Thank god for # 2

Cruel, but not crueler. :)


Hope that helps.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

auto
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Re: Anicca

Post by auto » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:57 pm

https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato
They understand:
So evaṃ pajānāti:

If I were to apply this equanimity, so pure and bright, to the dimension of infinite space, my mind would develop accordingly.
‘imañce ahaṃ upekkhaṃ evaṃ parisuddhaṃ evaṃ pariyodātaṃ ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasaṃhareyyaṃ, tadanudhammañca cittaṃ bhāveyyaṃ;

But that is conditioned.
saṅkhatametaṃ.

..
They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence.
So neva taṃ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā.

Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.
So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati,

Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.
They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’ Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānāti.

If they feel a pleasant feeling, they understand that it’s impermanent, that they’re not attached to it, and that they don’t take pleasure in it.
So sukhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, ‘sā aniccā’ti pajānāti, ‘anajjhositā’ti pajānāti, ‘anabhinanditā’ti pajānāti.
If they feel a pleasant feeling, they feel it detached.
So sukhañce vedanaṃ vedeti, visaṃyutto naṃ vedeti;
when not making a choice nor form an intent to continue existence or to end existence that will result in understanding of there is no return to any state of existence.
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/i/itthatta
itthattaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Itthatta,2 (nt.) [itthi + *tvaṁ abstr.fr.itthi] state or condition of femininity,womanhood,muliebrity Dhs.633 (= itthi-sabhāva DhsA.321).(Page 120)
Itthatta,1 (nt.) [ittha + *tvaṁ,abstr.fr.ittha.The curious BSk.distortion of this word is icchatta M Vastu 417] being here (in this world),in the present state of becoming,this (earthly) state (not “thusness” or “life as we conceive it”,as Mrs.Rh.D.in K.S.I.177; although a confusion between ittha & itthaṁ seems to exist,see ittha); “life in these conditions” K.S.II.17; expld. by itthabhāva C.on S.I,140 (see K.S.318).-- See also freq.formula A of arahatta.-- D.I,18,84; A.I,63; II,82,159,203; Sn.158; Dhs.633; Pug.70,71; DA.I,112.(Page 119)
..
ToVincent wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:15 pm
Now, to go back to the original post, one realizes that anicca as "not one's own", has little to do with the nature itself of the khandhas (and their subsequent "sankharized" dhammas).
The inherent nature of the khandhas is to be deficient - they are "not full". They break up before being completed. And so are the "sankharized" dhammas made out of them.
When you decompose 無常 (impermanence), it literally means "nonexistent (asat) permanence".
What exists for a while in us, does not mature to the point of being permanent. It breaks up before permanency.
i looked out Sutta what could be similar to your idea also has a pretty much a concept of aññathābhāva

also
what had to be done has been done
kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ
sounds like it were insatiable nature(urges whatever) what got done..you don't need to go or change etc you got it done via DO(They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence.Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world..)


why?
ToVincent wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:15 pm
and make a bit of research on the Indian litterature of the time,
if you are here.

auto
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Re: Anicca

Post by auto » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:52 pm

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... -Marks.htm
Rūpaṁ, bhikkhave, aniccaṁ,
1. Form, monastics, is impermanent,

2. yad-aniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ,
2. that which is impermanent is suffering,

3. yaṁ dukkhaṁ tad-anattā.
3. that which is suffering is without self.

Yad-anattā taṁ: Netaṁ mama, nesoham-asmi, na meso attā ti,
That which is without self: This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self,

evam-etaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya daṭṭhabbaṁ.
like this it should be seen with right wisdom as it really is.

Evam-etaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passato
Seeing like this with right wisdom as it really is

cittaṁ virajjati, vimuccati anupādāya āsavehi.
the mind becomes dispassionate, and liberated from the pollutants without attachment.
..
Vimuttattā ṭhitaṁ, ṭhitattā santusitaṁ,
In liberation it is steady, in steadiness it is content,

santusitattā na paritassati, aparitassaṁ paccattañ-ñeva parinibbāyati.
in contentment it is not disturbed, being undisturbed he personally attains Nibbāna.

Khīṇā jāti,
Destroyed is rebirth,

vusitaṁ brahmacariyaṁ,
accomplished is the spiritual life,

kataṁ karaṇīyaṁ,
done is what ought to be done,

nāparaṁ itthattāyā ti pajānātī ti.
there is no more of this mundane state - this he knows.

compare with mn140(bc its just posted in above post). It seem Citta needs be liberated before one can become undisturbed aparitassam and which is condition for to personally attain nibbana.


compared to mn 140 it is after the jhanas,
the "Evam-etaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passato, like this it should be seen with right wisdom as it really is."
seem to be same part as
"They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence So neva taṃ abhisaṅkharoti, na abhisañcetayati bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā. Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world.
So anabhisaṅkharonto anabhisañcetayanto bhavāya vā vibhavāya vā na kiñci loke upādiyati,
".
could the 'seeing with right wisdom as it really is' same as 'not grasping at anything in the world'.

auto
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Re: Anicca

Post by auto » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:21 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"And then, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [thinking,] 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness.
.."Now, when the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception.
As he remains at the peak of perception,
the thought occurs to him, 'Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, this perception of mine would cease, and a grosser perception would appear.
What if I were neither to think nor to will?'
[3] So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, that perception ceases [4] and another, grosser perception does not appear. He touches cessation. This, Potthapada, is how there is the alert [5] step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception.
https://suttacentral.net/dn9/en/sujato
Why don’t I neither make a choice nor form an intention?” yannūnāhaṃ na ceva ceteyyaṃ, na ca abhisaṅkhareyyan”ti.
Those perceptions cease in them, and other coarser perceptions don’t arise. So na ceva ceteti, na cābhisaṅkharoti, tassa acetayato anabhisaṅkharoto tā ceva saññā nirujjhanti, aññā ca oḷārikā saññā na uppajjanti.

They touch cessation. So nirodhaṃ phusati.
is that above same as "Evametaṃ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passato cittaṃ virajjati vimuccati anupādāya āsavehi" in sn22.45 https://suttacentral.net/sn22.45/en/sujato

ToVincent
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Re: Anicca

Post by ToVincent » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:58 pm

auto wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:21 pm
could the 'seeing with right wisdom as it really is' the same as 'not grasping at anything in the world'.
I suppose so.

First, let me translate correctly this extract: "seeing with right wisdom as it really is"; namely:
"seeing with right discerment, according to what have become".

There is a nuance.
One sees the process of the descent of the khandhas of Nāmarūpa, in Satta (as a whole).
One does not see just "what is"; but "according to what have become".

- "What has become" is "not one's own" (anicca) [khandhas are "not yours", says Buddha].
- "What has become" is "impermanent" (anicca) - [because of the intrinsic nature of the khandhas].
Both are of the nature of being not/non-self.
Both = suffering.

Why would one "grasp" at that.

In that sense, I guess that "seeing with right discerment, according to what have become" leads to "not grasping at anything in the world".
You're right.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

auto
Posts: 1222
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Anicca

Post by auto » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:05 pm

Bhava
ToVincent wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:58 pm
One does not see just "what is"; but "according to what have become".
yathābhūtaṁ - the "bhū" refer to bhava? cool, i agree i think for now.
Evam-etaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passato
Seeing like this with right wisdom as it really is

..
cittaṁ virajjati, vimuccati anupādāya āsavehi.
the mind becomes dispassionate, and liberated from the pollutants without attachment.
can you comment on that above sentence? do you have other translation option? also what is citta and upādāya deal, how are they related?

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