Avakkamati & okkamati

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DooDoot
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Avakkamati & okkamati

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:12 am

Dear Pali gurus

Are we able to offer any insights into the Pali terms avakkamati & okkamati, which the dictionary appears to treat synonymously? This includes okkanti (fr. okkamati) and avakkanti (fr. avakkamati).
Concise Pali English Dictionary
avakkamati
va + kam + a
enters; overwhelms.
I was reading SN 22.47 and not particularly enticed by any of the translations.
So they’re not rid of this way of regarding things and the conceit ‘I am’.
Iti ayañceva samanupassanā ‘asmī’ti cassa avigataṃ hoti.

As long as they’re not rid of the conceit ‘I am’, the five faculties are conceived
‘Asmī’ti kho pana, bhikkhave, avigate pañcannaṃ indriyānaṃ avakkanti hoti—

the eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body.
cakkhundriyassa sotindriyassa ghānindriyassa jivhindriyassa kāyindriyassa.

The mind, thoughts, and the element of ignorance are all present.
Atthi, bhikkhave, mano, atthi dhammā, atthi avijjādhātu.

Struck by feelings born of contact with ignorance, an uneducated ordinary person thinks ‘I am’,
Avijjāsamphassajena, bhikkhave, vedayitena phuṭṭhassa assutavato puthujjanassa ‘asmī’tipissa hoti;

‘I am this’,
‘ayamahamasmī’tipissa hoti;

‘I will be’,
‘bhavissan’tipissa hoti;

‘I will not be’,
‘na bhavissan’tipissa hoti;

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.47/en/sujato
Thus, both this assumption & the understanding, 'I am,' occur to him. And so it is with reference to the understanding 'I am' that there is the appearance of the five faculties — eye, ear, nose, tongue, & body (the senses of vision, hearing, smell, taste, & touch).

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Thus this way of regarding things and the notion ‘I am’ have not vanished in him. As ‘I am’ has not vanished, there takes place a descent of the five faculties—of the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, the body faculty. There is, bhikkhus, the mind, there are mental phenomena, there is the element of ignorance. When the uninstructed worldling is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, ‘I am’ occurs to him; ‘I am this’ occurs to him; ‘I will be’ and ‘I will not be,’ and ‘I will consist of form’ and ‘I will be formless,’ and ‘I will be percipient’ and ‘I will be nonpercipient’ and ‘I will be neither percipient nor nonpercipient’—these occur to him.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.47/en/bodhi
In the context of SN 22.47 , I found "overwhelms" interesting although still remain unsatisfied.

Thank you :anjali:
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Volo
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Re: Avakkamati & okkamati

Post by Volo » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:47 am

No difference. ava often becomes o (as aya becomes e). Sanskrit would have ava. Sometimes both forms (with ava and with o) are used, sometimes only one.
Last edited by Volo on Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.


Srilankaputra
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Re: Avakkamati & okkamati

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:40 am

Very interesting sutta. But can some one explain it in plain english , please. :anjali:
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

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Re: Avakkamati & okkamati

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:48 am

Is this sutta explaining the DO sequence from 'salayatana' to 'upadana' ( or bhava) ?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

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Re: Avakkamati & okkamati

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:35 am

Volo wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:47 am
No difference. ava often becomes o (as aya becomes e). Sanskrit would have ava. Sometimes both forms (with ava and with o) are used, sometimes only one.
Thank you Volo
Dmytro wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:03 am
See the CPD articles
Thank you Dmytro. This looks like an excellent resource.
Srilankaputra wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:48 am
Is this sutta explaining the DO sequence from 'salayatana' to 'upadana' ( or bhava) ?
Most of the conditions appear in the sutta, such as ignorance, sense bases, contact, feeling & attachment. Similar to SN 22.81, it appears this sutta (SN 22.47) does not mention sankhara, consciousness & nama-rupa but uses ignorance at sense contact (avijjāsamphassajena) as the starting point. I think the sutta is emphasising the conceit "I am" as its main subject. While "I am" is upadana (attachment), it probably also generates ignorance when uneradicated and thus propels the continuous cycle of samsara. While "becoming" is the 10th condition, according to MN 9, the asava of becoming ("bhavāsavo"; which I assume is past becoming) is also included as part of ignorance. Similarly, AN 7.11 includes "conceit" as one of the underlying tendencies, which I would also include within ignorance; particularly when "conceit" becomes a "habit".

While ignorance does not have a direct preceding cause; suttas such as AN 10.61 refer to how the five hindrances (and other defilements) "feed" and "sustain" ignorance. Thus it appears the cycle of dependent origination can be circular. If the upadana of "I am" and "conceit" continues unabated, then ignorance will grow and continue. While the upadana of "I am" does not cause or create ignorance; it feeds & sustains ignorance.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Avakkamati & okkamati

Post by Srilankaputra » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:41 pm

"pañcannaṃ indriyānaṃ avakkanti hoti" seems similar to "gabbhassa avakkanti hoti". Is it the same thing ?
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

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Re: Avakkamati & okkamati

Post by DooDoot » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:29 am

They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn [becoming] and ignorance.

That’s how emptiness is born in them —genuine, undistorted, and pure.

Evampissa esā, ānanda, yathābhuccā avipallatthā parisuddhā paramānuttarā suññatāvakkanti bhavati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn121/en/sujato
If there is desire, relishing, and craving for solid food, consciousness becomes established there and grows.

Kabaḷīkāre ce, bhikkhave, āhāre atthi rāgo atthi nandī atthi taṇhā, patiṭṭhitaṃ tattha viññāṇaṃ virūḷhaṃ.

Where consciousness is established and grows, name and form are conceived.

Yattha patiṭṭhitaṃ viññāṇaṃ virūḷhaṃ, atthi tattha nāmarūpassa avakkanti.

Where name and form are conceived, there is the growth of choices.

Yattha atthi nāmarūpassa avakkanti, atthi tattha saṅkhārānaṃ vuddhi.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.64/en/sujato
There are things that are prone to being fettered. When you concentrate on the gratification provided by these things, name and form are conceived.

Saṃyojaniyesu, bhikkhave, dhammesu assādānupassino viharato nāmarūpassa avakkanti hoti

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.58/en/sujato
Mendicants, what you intend or plan, and what you have underlying tendencies for become a support for the continuation of consciousness.

“Yañca, bhikkhave, ceteti yañca pakappeti yañca anuseti, ārammaṇametaṃ hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā.

When this support exists, consciousness becomes established.

Ārammaṇe sati patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa hoti.

When consciousness is established, name and form are conceived.

Tasmiṃ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe virūḷhe nāmarūpassa avakkanti hoti.

Name and form are conditions for the six sense fields.

Nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṃ;

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.39/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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Re: Avakkamati & okkamati

Post by DooDoot » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:48 am

Some people do enter the sure path with regards to skillful qualities, regardless of whether or not they get to see a Realized One, and to hear the teaching and training that he proclaims.

Idha, pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo labhanto vā tathāgataṃ dassanāya alabhanto vā tathāgataṃ dassanāya, labhanto vā tathāgatappaveditaṃ dhammavinayaṃ savanāya alabhanto vā tathāgatappaveditaṃ dhammavinayaṃ savanāya okkamati niyāmaṃ kusalesu dhammesu sammattaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.22/en/sujato
kāye dubbaṇṇiyaṃ okkamati

his bodily radiance fades :?:

https://suttacentral.net/iti83/en/ireland
When the being intent on awakening passes away from the host of Joyful Gods, he’s conceived in his mother’s womb

Yadā, bhikkhave, bodhisatto tusitā kāyā cavitvā sato sampajāno mātukucchiṃ okkamati

https://suttacentral.net/an4.127/en/sujato
So, Moggallāna, don’t focus on or cultivate the perception that you were meditating on when you fell drowsy. :?:

“Tasmātiha, moggallāna, yathāsaññissa te viharato taṃ middhaṃ okkamati, taṃ saññaṃ mā manasākāsi, taṃ saññaṃ mā bahulamakāsi.

https://suttacentral.net/an7.61/en/sujato
Sometimes the Realized One submerges his body in his mind and his mind in his body. He meditates after sinking into a perception of bliss and lightness in the body.

Yasmiṃ, ānanda, samaye tathāgato kāyampi citte samodahati cittampi kāye samodahati, sukhasaññañca lahusaññañca kāye okkamitvā viharati

https://suttacentral.net/sn51.22/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

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