Differences in translations - DN 31 Sigalovada . Traditional commentary?

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newbee
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Differences in translations - DN 31 Sigalovada . Traditional commentary?

Post by newbee » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:30 am

Three translations of the DN31 have slight variations.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html
"In five ways, young householder, a child should minister to his parents as the East:

(iii) I shall keep the family tradition

"In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:

(iv) they arrange a suitable marriage
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .ksw0.html
"In five ways should a mother and father as the eastern direction be respected by a child:

I will maintain the family lineage and tradition

"And, the mother and father so respected reciprocate with compassion in five ways:

supporting the choice of a suitable spouse
#1
In one translation, in addition to tradition, there is an extra word 'lineage'.
Does the Pali text have lineage or tradition or both?

If it is lineage, it it correct to assume the (implied) meaning is to continue the family line further?
But if it is tradition, then the meaning is not clear.
What tradition(s) is the Buddha telling Sigalaka to keep following?


#2
Here, the first translation seems to say that parents should choose a suitable spouse for children and the other one appears to give the impression that it is children who choose and parents ought to agree.

In the third translation from SuttaCentral this directive to parents regarding marriage is absent.

https://suttacentral.net/dn31/en/sujato
A child should serve their parents as the eastern quarter in five ways, thinking:

I’ll maintain the family traditions.

Parents served by the children in these five ways show compassion to them in five ways.

They keep them from doing bad.
They support them in doing good.
They train them in a profession.
They transfer the inheritance in due time.


Parents served by their children in these five ways show compassion to them in these five ways. And that’s how the eastern quarter is covered, kept safe and free of peril.
Could anyone give word-by-word translation from the original Pali for these two points and also, if possible, provide the explanations given in the traditional commentaries.

:anjali:

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DooDoot
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Re: Differences in translations - DN 31 Sigalovada . Traditional commentary?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:31 am

newbee wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:30 am
Could anyone give word-by-word translation from the original Pali
Hi Newbee

What I have done below (for the 1st time) you can learn to do yourself using Bhikkhu Sujato's translations, which includes the Pali.

1. Locate Bhikkhu Sujato's translation, here: https://suttacentral.net/dn31/en/sujato

2. Click on the 'small grey wheel' at top right to active: (i) 'View original text with translation' & (ii) 'Activate Pali word lookup' (scroll down)

3. Follow the English text and then place your curser over the Pali words, which will highlight their root form (pictured below)

4. If necessary, place the root form of the word into the search function and find the dictionary

5. Even further, place the root form of the word into the search function and examine how the word is used contextually in other suttas (e.g. the word 'paṭirūpa' found in SN 37.32, AN 3.22)
In some cases a patient won’t recover from an illness, regardless of whether or not they get suitable (patirūpaṃ) food and medicines, and a capable carer.

AN 3.22
:candle:

Back to the topic of DN 31: :smile:

patirūpena dārena saṃyojenti - "joins with suitable wife" (it seems)
paṭirūpa
adjective
fit; proper; suitable; befitting.
dāra & dārā
feminine
a young woman, esp. married woman, wife.
saṃyojeti
saṃ + yuj + e
joins; combines; binds.
:reading:

kulavaṃsaṃ ṭhapessāmi
New Concise Pali English Dictionary
kulavaṃsa
neuter
the family line; the family succession; the family tradition (see kula)

Concise Pali English Dictionary
kulavaṃsa
neuter
lineage; progeny.
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Neither extolling nor disparaging but teaching only the Dhamma... one teaches only the Dhamma. MN 139

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Dhammanando
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Re: Differences in translations - DN 31 Sigalovada . Traditional commentary?

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:55 am

newbee wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:30 am
In one translation, in addition to tradition, there is an extra word 'lineage'.
Does the Pali text have lineage or tradition or both?
If one treats kulavaṃsa as a genitive dependent determinate (tappurisa) compound, then the translation will be “tradition/lineage of the family” or simply “family tradition”.

If one treats it as a copulative (dvanda) compound then it will be “family and tradition”.

The commentaries consistently analyse it in the first way.
newbee wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:30 am
If it is lineage, it it correct to assume the (implied) meaning is to continue the family line further?
Elsewhere in the Suttas kulavaṃsa refers to family customs, such as giving gifts to samaṇas, hospitality to guests, keeping the uposatha precepts, leaving out drinking water and refreshments for passing travellers, etc.
newbee wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:30 am
Here, the first translation seems to say that parents should choose a suitable spouse for children and the other one appears to give the impression that it is children who choose and parents ought to agree.
The first is correct; the second seems to be informed by some modernistic imperative.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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