Contextual use of "samudaya" in the Pali suttas???

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DooDoot
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Contextual use of "samudaya" in the Pali suttas???

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Dear Pali gurus and sutta readers

Generally, my impression of the word "samudaya" is the Pali suttas is it used in contexts of the arising of suffering or in the arising of kamma (which generally includes self-view and thus is mundane & ultimately suffering).

Since I wish to avoid an extensive sutta search, are there any suttas that come to mind where the word "samudaya" is used in relation neutral or supramundane dhammas?

For example, SN 47.42 comes to mind.
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the origination and the passing away of the four establishments of mindfulness. Listen to that.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the origination of the body? With the origination of nutriment there is the origination of the body. With the cessation of nutriment there is the passing away of the body.

“With the origination of contact there is the origination of feeling. With the cessation of contact there is the passing away of feeling.

“With the origination of name-and-form there is the origination of mind. With the cessation of name-and-form there is the passing away of mind.

“With the origination of attention there is the origination of phenomena. With the cessation of attention there is the passing away of phenomena.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn47.42/en/bodhi
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.42/en/sujato
Thank you

:smile:
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Re: Contextual use of "samudaya" in the Pali suttas???

Post by Volo »

Obviously I also don't want to do an extensive sutta search, but the first thing which comes to my mind when i think of samudaya and dhamma is this:
iti ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati, ajjhattabahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati; samudayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, vayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, samudayavayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati.
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Re: Contextual use of "samudaya" in the Pali suttas???

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Volo wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:35 am Obviously I also don't want to do an extensive sutta search, but the first thing which comes to my mind when i think of samudaya and dhamma is this:
Thanks Volo however MN 10 is not a sutta I can take seriously because of its overt generalisations and because of its questionable origins. For example, the idea that the 7 factors of enlightenment & 4 noble truths are subject to arising & vanishing makes Satipatthana sound ineffective. That is, to realise the Truth and then the Truth vanishes sounds very poor.

Are there any other, more pithy, suttas you can recall. Thanks :smile:
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Re: Contextual use of "samudaya" in the Pali suttas???

Post by DooDoot »

To provide some background here, I begin with reference to the word "uppajjati", which is found in "neutral" contexts where suffering has not arisen. For example:
Mind consciousness arises dependent on the mind and thoughts. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for what is felt as pleasant, painful, or neutral.

“Manañca, bhikkhave, paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso, phassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā.

When you experience a pleasant feeling, if you don’t approve, welcome, and keep clinging to it,
So sukhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno nābhinandati nābhivadati nājjhosāya tiṭṭhati.

the underlying tendency to greed does not underlie that.
Tassa rāgānusayo nānuseti.

When you experience a painful feeling, if you don’t sorrow or wail or lament, beating your breast and falling into confusion,
Dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno na socati na kilamati na paridevati na urattāḷiṃ kandati na sammohaṃ āpajjati.

the underlying tendency to repulsion does not underlie that.
Tassa paṭighānusayo nānuseti.

When you experience a pleasant feeling, if you truly understand that feeling’s origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape,
Adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno tassā vedanāya samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti.

the underlying tendency to ignorance does not underlie that.
Tassa avijjānusayo nānuseti.

Mendicants, after giving up the underlying tendency to desire for pleasant feeling, after dispelling the underlying tendency to repulsion towards painful feeling, after eradicating ignorance in the case of neutral feeling, after giving up ignorance and giving rise to knowledge, it’s totally possible to make an end of suffering in the present life.

So vata, bhikkhave, sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayaṃ pahāya dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayaṃ paṭivinodetvā adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya avijjānusayaṃ samūhanitvā avijjaṃ pahāya vijjaṃ uppādetvā diṭṭheva dhamme dukkhassantakaro bhavissatīti—ṭhānametaṃ vijjati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
While both "samudaya" and "uppajjati" are translated as "arise"; can their meanings be different?
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Re: Contextual use of "samudaya" in the Pali suttas???

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DooDoot wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:27 am To provide some background here, I begin with reference to the word "uppajjati", which is found in "neutral" contexts where suffering has not arisen. For example:
Mind consciousness arises dependent on the mind and thoughts. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for what is felt as pleasant, painful, or neutral.

“Manañca, bhikkhave, paṭicca dhamme ca uppajjati manoviññāṇaṃ tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso, phassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā.

When you experience a pleasant feeling, if you don’t approve, welcome, and keep clinging to it,
So sukhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno nābhinandati nābhivadati nājjhosāya tiṭṭhati.

the underlying tendency to greed does not underlie that.
Tassa rāgānusayo nānuseti.

When you experience a painful feeling, if you don’t sorrow or wail or lament, beating your breast and falling into confusion,
Dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno na socati na kilamati na paridevati na urattāḷiṃ kandati na sammohaṃ āpajjati.

the underlying tendency to repulsion does not underlie that.
Tassa paṭighānusayo nānuseti.

When you experience a pleasant feeling, if you truly understand that feeling’s origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape,
Adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno tassā vedanāya samudayañca atthaṅgamañca assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti.

the underlying tendency to ignorance does not underlie that.
Tassa avijjānusayo nānuseti.

Mendicants, after giving up the underlying tendency to desire for pleasant feeling, after dispelling the underlying tendency to repulsion towards painful feeling, after eradicating ignorance in the case of neutral feeling, after giving up ignorance and giving rise to knowledge, it’s totally possible to make an end of suffering in the present life.

So vata, bhikkhave, sukhāya vedanāya rāgānusayaṃ pahāya dukkhāya vedanāya paṭighānusayaṃ paṭivinodetvā adukkhamasukhāya vedanāya avijjānusayaṃ samūhanitvā avijjaṃ pahāya vijjaṃ uppādetvā diṭṭheva dhamme dukkhassantakaro bhavissatīti—ṭhānametaṃ vijjati.

https://suttacentral.net/mn148/en/sujato
While both "samudaya" and "uppajjati" are translated as "arise"; can their meanings be different?
I think there is a significant difference, and it is the one you are pointing to. In SN 35.88 (With Punna) for example, the two are mentioned close together. But in the case of the phenomenon of "relishing" (nandi) it is arising: uppajjati. When (in the very next link) that relishing gives rise to suffering, then the term is samudayo, or origination. Elsewhere, as in AN 11.2, wholesome states that are wished for are uppajjati throughout; whereas not just suffering, but "things that entail suffering" in SN 35.244 are samudaya. This seems as far as I can see to be a fairly standard usage throughout suttas, although the PTS dictionary and Warder give them as near synonyms. I had thought of this as the Second Noble Truth formulation influencing subsequent usage, but that's just a guess.
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Re: Contextual use of "samudaya" in the Pali suttas???

Post by Volo »

I've just checked examples, which PED gives for samudaya, and here is from Iti 1.22 (according to PED samuddaya is metri causa instead of samudaya):
“ete dhamme bhāvayitvā,
tayo sukhasamuddaye [sukhasamudraye (sī. aṭṭha.)].
abyāpajjhaṃ [abyāpajjaṃ (syā. ka.), abyābajjhaṃ (?)] sukhaṃ lokaṃ,
paṇḍito upapajjatī”ti.

By cultivating these three things,
Deeds yielding happiness,
The wise person is reborn in bliss
In an untroubled happy world.
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:41 amBut in the case of the phenomenon of "relishing" (nandi) it is arising: uppajjati. When (in the very next link) that relishing gives rise to suffering, then the term is samudayo, or origination.
This might be simply because in the first case the sentence is built with the verb (uppajjati), and in the second - with the noun (samudaya).
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Re: Contextual use of "samudaya" in the Pali suttas???

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https://suttacentral.net/mn148/pli/ms
Cakkhuñca, bhikkhave, paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso, phassapaccayā uppajjati vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā.
translation by Sujato
Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for the arising of what is felt as pleasant, painful, or neutral.
--

eye, bhikkus, resulted of the rupa(seeing), which comes to existence via abiding in eye consciousness, third incursion is contact, contact originated coming to existence feelings of pleasant, painful and adukkhamaasukham.

point is the contact is the third time thing what happen.

further in the text,
So sukhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno nābhinandati nābhivadati nājjhosāya tiṭṭhati. Tassa rāgānusayo nānuseti.
translation by S,
When you experience a pleasant feeling, if you don’t approve, welcome, and keep clinging to it, the underlying tendency to greed does not underlie that.
-
pleasant feeling is reached(attained) by abiding in being where not finding pleasure, not welcome it, not cling to pleasure. Then underlying pleasure will be activated.

otherwords, when avoiding pleasure etc then by contact you awake the underlying pleasure.
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Re: Contextual use of "samudaya" in the Pali suttas???

Post by DooDoot »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:41 am the PTS dictionary and Warder give them as near synonyms.
OK. Thanks for that. Below it appears synonymous. However, I suppose this does not answer my core question, namely, does "samudaya" refer to the arising of dukkha?
Volo wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:16 pmThis might be simply because in the first case the sentence is built with the verb (uppajjati), and in the second - with the noun (samudaya).
Ok. Thanks. How negligent of me. So the noun for the verb uppajjati might be uppāda, which appears synonymous with samudaya, below:
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, the arising, continuation, production and manifestation of form is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death. The arising of feeling … of perception … of volitional formations … of consciousness is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death.

“The cessation, subsiding and passing away of form … of consciousness is the cessation of suffering, the subsiding of disease, the passing away of aging-and-death.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.30/en/bodhi

Sāvatthinidānaṃ. “Yo, bhikkhave, rūpassa uppādo ṭhiti abhinibbatti pātubhāvo, dukkhasseso uppādo rogānaṃ ṭhiti jarāmaraṇassa pātubhāvo. Yo vedanāya … pe … yo saññāya … pe … yo saṅkhārānaṃ … pe … yo viññāṇassa uppādo ṭhiti abhinibbatti pātubhāvo, dukkhasseso uppādo rogānaṃ ṭhiti jarāmaraṇassa pātubhāvo. Yo ca kho, bhikkhave, rūpassa nirodho vūpasamo atthaṅgamo, dukkhasseso nirodho rogānaṃ vūpasamo jarāmaraṇassa atthaṅgamo. Yo vedanāya … pe … yo saññāya … yo saṅkhārānaṃ … yo viññāṇassa nirodho vūpasamo atthaṅgamo, dukkhasseso nirodho rogānaṃ vūpasamo jarāmaraṇassa atthaṅgamo”ti

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.30/pli/ms
Some neutral text, here:
“Mendicants, conditioned phenomena have these three characteristics.
“Tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, saṅkhatassa saṅkhatalakkhaṇāni.

What three?
Katamāni tīṇi?

Arising is evident, vanishing is evident, and change while persisting is evident.
Uppādo paññāyati, vayo paññāyati, ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ paññāyati.

These are the three characteristics of conditioned phenomena.”
Imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi saṅkhatassa saṅkhatalakkhaṇānī”ti.

“Unconditioned phenomena have these three characteristics.
“Tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, asaṅkhatassa asaṅkhatalakkhaṇāni.

What three?
Katamāni tīṇi?

No arising is evident, no vanishing is evident, and no change while persisting is evident.
Na uppādo paññāyati, na vayo paññāyati, na ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ paññāyati.

These are the three characteristics of unconditioned phenomena.”
Imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi asaṅkhatassa asaṅkhatalakkhaṇānī”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.47/en/sujato
A dual text here, where udapādi appears used in the context of cessation of suffering:
Maṃsacakkhussa uppādo,
maggo dibbassa cakkhuno;
Yato ñāṇaṃ udapādi,
paññācakkhu anuttaraṃ;
Yassa cakkhussa paṭilābhā,
sabbadukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

The arising of the fleshly eye
Is the path to the divine eye,
But the unsurpassed wisdom eye
Is that from which knowledge arises.
By obtaining such an eye
One is released from all suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/iti61/en/ireland
Another:
Buddhānaṃ uppādo vivajjito,
Akkhaṇo khaṇo laddho;
Sīlāni brahmacariyaṃ,
Yāvajīvaṃ na dūseyyaṃ”.

Now is the Age [Arising] of Buddhas! Gone the want
Of opportunity! The moment’s won!
O let me never while I live misprize
The precepts, nor withstand the holy life!’

https://suttacentral.net/thig16.1/en/caf_rhysdavids
Last one for uppada (which is evidence against my hypothesis, although disappointing :| ):
Mendicants, whether Realized Ones arise or not, this law of nature persists, this regularity of natural principles, this invariance of natural principles:

Uppādā vā, bhikkhave, tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā

https://suttacentral.net/an3.136/en/sujato
Its disappointing because it makes the following ambiguous:
“Mendicants, the arising, continuation, production and manifestation of the earth element is the arising of suffering, the continuation of diseases, and the manifestation of old age and death.

“Yo, bhikkhave, pathavīdhātuyā uppādo ṭhiti abhinibbatti pātubhāvo, dukkhasseso uppādo rogānaṃ ṭhiti jarāmaraṇassa pātubhāvo.

SN 14.36
It seems SN 14.36 does not refer to lava spewing from a volcano but to a mental arising in relation to the earth element.
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Re: Contextual use of "samudaya" in the Pali suttas???

Post by DooDoot »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:46 am Generally, my impression of the word "samudaya" is the Pali suttas is it used in contexts of the arising of suffering or in the arising of kamma (which generally includes self-view and thus is mundane & ultimately suffering).
SN 22.5 appears to support the above point of view:
And what is the origin of form, feeling, perception, choices and consciousness?

Ko ca, bhikkhave, rūpassa samudayo, ko vedanāya samudayo, ko saññāya samudayo, ko saṅkhārānaṃ samudayo, ko viññāṇassa samudayo?

It’s when a mendicant approves, welcomes, and keeps clinging.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu abhinandati abhivadati ajjhosāya tiṭṭhati
.
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Re: Contextual use of "samudaya" in the Pali suttas???

Post by sentinel »

Perhaps samudaya translated as origination not that accurate . Or maybe no suitable words . My understanding is samudaya meaning is
" collectively give rise to "
which appears quite different to simply "arising" .
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Re: Contextual use of "samudaya" in the Pali suttas???

Post by DooDoot »

sentinel wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:16 pm My understanding is samudaya meaning is " collectively give rise to " which appears quite different to simply "arising" .
Sure (however, not really related to the topic). The topic is about the contextual use of "samudaya". Regards :)
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