Noble Individuals vs. Enlightened States

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samseva
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Noble Individuals vs. Enlightened States

Post by samseva » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:11 am

In various contexts, for Stream-Entry, you happen upon either the Pāḷi word sotāpanna, or less commonly, sotāpatti. The former is usually translated into English as 'Stream-Enterer', and the latter as 'Stream-Entry'. Although I don't know if this applies to the Pāḷi, for the English terms, there is an important distinction between sotāpanna, which is the individual, and sotāpatti, which describes the Enlightened state.

If you take the other ariya, as well as the paths and fruitions, it seems as though the state of Stream-Entry is used, while the rest are described according to their respective paths and fruitions as individuals.
Stream-Enterer — sotāpanna
Once-Returner — sakadāgāmi
Non-Returner — anāgāmī
Arahant — arahat

sotāpattimagga — sotāpattiphala
sakadāgāmimagga — sakadāgāmiphala
anāgāmimagga — anāgāmiphala
arahatta-magga — arahatta-phala
However, this could be because of my misunderstanding of the Pāḷi, but this is how they are translated and presented in English.

With the PTS dictionary, sotāpanna and sotāpatti, as well as the path and fruition, are described as:
[sota]-āpatti entering upon the stream, i. e. the noble eightfold path (S v.347), conversion Vin ii.93 etc. By it the first three Saṁyojanas are broken S v.357, 376. It has four phases (an- gas): faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Order, and, further, the noble Sīlas S ii.68 sq.; v.362 sq.; A iii.12; iv.405; D iii.227 (in detail). Another set of four angas consists of sappurisa — saṁsevā, saddhammasavana, yonisomanasikāra, and dhammânudhammapaṭipatti S v.347, 404. — phala the effect of having entered upon the stream, the fruit of conversion Vin i.293; ii.183; M i.325; A i.44; iii.441; iv.292 sq., 372 sq.; D i.229; iii.227; S iii.168, 225; v.410 sq.; Pug 13; DhA iii.192; iv.5; PvA 22, 38, 66, 142. — magga the way to conversion, the lower stage of conversion DA i.237; J i.97; VbhA 307; see magga. -āpanna one who has entered the stream
This sheds some light on the issue. Based on the above, sotāpatti describes anyone who is practicing the Noble Eightfold Path, and of what I remember from past reading, sotāpattimagga is solely the few seconds prior to the fruition-attainment of sotāpattiphala?

What I'm wondering is...
  • Is the English translation of the above Pāḷi terms a misleading mess, and if so, what is the correct meaning of the different Pāḷi terms?
  • Apart from the paths and fruits, are there Pāḷi terms to describe each of the four stages as states, rather than as individuals?

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Volovsky
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Re: Noble Individuals vs. Enlightened States

Post by Volovsky » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:36 am

samseva wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:11 am
  • Is the English translation of the above Pāḷi terms a misleading mess, and if so, what is the correct meaning of the different Pāḷi terms?
  • Apart from the paths and fruits, are there Pāḷi terms to describe each of the four stages as states, rather than as individuals?
English translation is okay. Both person and the state are used in Pali:

sotāpanna - sotāpatti
Sakadāgāmin - Sakadāgāmitā
Anāgāmin - Anāgāmitā
Arahant - Arahatta

You can find examples from tipitaka if you search for the corresponding words in PED.

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Re: Noble Individuals vs. Enlightened States

Post by Dmytro » Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:32 am

Hi Samseva,

Saupadisesa sutta may make it clearer to you. One who has entered the stream is described there in the following way:
Puna caparaṃ, sāriputta, idhekacco puggalo sīlesu paripūrakārī hoti, samādhismiṃ mattaso kārī, paññāya mattaso kārī. So tiṇṇaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā sattak­khat­tu­paramo hoti, sattak­khat­tu­paramaṃ deve ca manusse ca sandhāvitvā saṃsaritvā dukkhassantaṃ karoti.

Again, Sāriputta, a certain person is complete in virtues, incomplete in concentration and incomplete in wisdom. Destroying three bonds he transmigrates as a human or god the most seven times and makes end of unpleasantness. Sāriputta, this is the eighth person who dies with substratum, released, from hell, from animal birth, from the sphere of ghosts and released from loss and hellish births.
AN 9.12 http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ggo-e.html

In other words,
"He is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

And though he has not yet fully developed wisdom, he has an initial amount of it, described in Okkanta samyutta:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... ml#okkanta

One who is on the way to stream-entry (sotapatti-magga) develops virtue, and initial amount of wisdom.

Stream-entry is an event, described e.g. as:
Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye:
"Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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samseva
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Re: Noble Individuals vs. Enlightened States

Post by samseva » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:45 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:36 am
sotāpanna - sotāpatti
Sakadāgāmin - Sakadāgāmitā
Anāgāmin - Anāgāmitā
Arahant - Arahatta
Ah, yes. I looked these up in the PED and those are in fact the individuals and states. However, while sotāpanna is correct, it is difficult to say if sotāpatti is the state of a Stream-Enterer:
PED wrote:[sota]-āpatti entering upon the stream, i. e. the noble eightfold path (S v.347), conversion Vin ii.93 etc.By it the first three Saṁyojanas are broken S v.357, 376. It has four phases (angas): faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Order, and, further, the noble Sīlas S ii.68 sq.; v.362 sq.; A iii.12; iv.405; D iii.227 (in detail). Another set of four angas consists of sappurisa — saṁsevā, saddhammasavana, yonisomanasikāra, and dhammânudhammapaṭipatti S v.347, 404.
While it could imply the state of a Stream-Enterer, it doesn't clearly represent the state itself, like sakadāgāmitā and so on.

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samseva
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Re: Noble Individuals vs. Enlightened States

Post by samseva » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:48 pm

Dmytro wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:32 am
[...]
Yes, those are all important things to know regarding a Stream-Enterer (absence of the first three fetters, developed in faith and having the qualities of a Stream-Enterer), however, what I am trying to find out is how to clearly distinguish the following four Pāḷi terms:
sotāpanna
sotāpatti
sotāpattimagga
sotāpattiphala
Sotāpanna is clearly someone who has reached Stream-Entry, however, with the other three, it isn't so clear.
  • With the other ayira, is the -magga the duration between the previous attainment and right before the next?
  • Since the above can't apply to a Stream-Enterer, what does sotāpattimagga constitute? Can a puthajjana be following sotāpattimagga, from practicing the Noble Eightfold Path, or is it the short moment while entering the stream?
  • If so for either, is there a Pāḷi term for the state of Stream-Entry, like the other three ariya?
I'm also trying to get a better understanding of the fruitions (phala), based on the Suttas, which doesn't seem like an easy task. At least, I need to understand to other terms first.

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Re: Noble Individuals vs. Enlightened States

Post by Dmytro » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:36 am

samseva wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:48 pm
[*]With the other ariya, is the -magga the duration between the previous attainment and right before the next?
Yes, it's that section of the Path.
[*]Since the above can't apply to a Stream-Enterer, what does sotāpattimagga constitute? Can a puthajjana be following sotāpattimagga, from practicing the Noble Eightfold Path, or is it the short moment while entering the stream?
Initially it was a section of the Path from conversion (mentioned by you above) until stream-entry. In later scholastic literature it became momentary.
samseva wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:48 pm
[*]If so for either, is there a Pāḷi term for the state of Stream-Entry, like the other three ariya?
Well, the state is called sotapanna, while the event sotapatti.

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Virgo
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Re: Noble Individuals vs. Enlightened States

Post by Virgo » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:31 pm

Hi Samseva, you might enjoy this reading of chapter 23 on Lokuttara Cittas from Nina Van Gorkom's excellent book Abhidhamma in Daily Life.

http://dhammastudygroup.org/audio/bwADL ... t%2023.mp3


Virgo

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samseva
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Re: Noble Individuals vs. Enlightened States

Post by samseva » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:59 am

Dmytro wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:36 am
[*]Since the above can't apply to a Stream-Enterer, what does sotāpattimagga constitute? Can a puthajjana be following sotāpattimagga, from practicing the Noble Eightfold Path, or is it the short moment while entering the stream?
Initially it was a section of the Path from conversion (mentioned by you above) until stream-entry. In later scholastic literature it became momentary.
So you're saying sotāpattimagga is between conversion (sotapatti) and ... ? What is the Pāḷi term you are referring to?
Dmytro wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:36 am
samseva wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:48 pm
[*]If so for either, is there a Pāḷi term for the state of Stream-Entry, like the other three ariya?
Well, the state is called sotapanna, while the event sotapatti.
Sotāpanna is the individual, not the state:
PED wrote:[sota]-āpanna one who has entered the stream, a convert
Virgo wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:31 pm
Hi Samseva, you might enjoy this reading of chapter 23 on Lokuttara Cittas from Nina Van Gorkom's excellent book Abhidhamma in Daily Life.

http://dhammastudygroup.org/audio/bwADL ... t%2023.mp3

Virgo
Hi Virgo,

Thanks. Nina Van Gorkom's Abhidhamma in Daily Life is an excellent book. I would like to study it further when I have a more time. I read the chapter you suggested, but apart from describing what is uprooted for a sotapanna, I didn't find what I was looking for.


A clear description of sotapatti and the Pāḷi word of the state of a Stream-Enterer has yet to be found. Maybe I'll fall upon it eventually.

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Volovsky
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Re: Noble Individuals vs. Enlightened States

Post by Volovsky » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:22 am

samseva wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:48 pm
[*]Since the above can't apply to a Stream-Enterer, what does sotāpattimagga constitute? Can a puthajjana be following sotāpattimagga, from practicing the Noble Eightfold Path, or is it the short moment while entering the stream?
There are different opinions. E.g. according to Abhidhamma, magga is the instant, at which defilements are actually destroyed, after which one becomes ariya, i.e. gets phala.

Others would say that one gets sotāpattimagga by entering a "fixed course of rightness" (okkanto sammattaniyāmaṃ), i.e. becoming a faith-follwer (saddhānusārin) or Dhamma-follower (dhammānusārin), and will surely realize the fruit of sotāpanna before passing away (SN 25.1). As Ven. Anālayo pointed out these two opinions not necessarily contradict to each other. It might be the actual attainment of sotāpattiphala happens instantaneously (i.e. defilements are destroyed in one moment), but entering the fixed course of rightness occurs earlier, but defilements are not eradicated yet.

Whatever is the case, I don't think any of possibilities can be derived from simple analysis of pali names.
[*]If so for either, is there a Pāḷi term for the state of Stream-Entry, like the other three ariya?
[/list]
I would say, Stream-Entry state = sotāpatti, similarly as arahattamagga is derived from arahatta (state of arahatship), sotāpatti in sotāpattimagga, would be a state of sotāpanna.

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samseva
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Re: Noble Individuals vs. Enlightened States

Post by samseva » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:52 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:22 am
I would say, Stream-Entry state = sotāpatti, similarly as arahattamagga is derived from arahatta (state of arahatship), sotāpatti in sotāpattimagga, would be a state of sotāpanna.
But it's not.

Here are the PED definitions for sakadāgāmitā, anāgāmitā and arahatta:
PED wrote:Sakadāgāmitā (f.) [abstr. fr. last] the state of a "once-returner" D ii.206.
PED wrote:Anāgāmitā (f.) [anāgāmin + tā] the state or condition of an Anāgāmin S v.129, 181, 285; A iii.82; v.108, 300 sq.; Sn p. 140 = A iii.143; It 1 sq., 39, 40.
PED wrote:Arahatta1 (nt.) [abstr. formation fr. arahat°, 2nd base of arahant in compn.: see arahant iv.2] the state or condition of an Arahant, i. e. perfection in the Buddhist sense = Nibbāna (S iv.151) final & absolute emancipation, Arahantship, the at- tainment of the last & highest stage of the Path (see magga & anāgāmin).
And here is the PED difinition for sotāpatti:
PED wrote:[sota]-āpatti entering upon the stream, i. e. the noble eightfold path (S v.347), conversion Vin ii.93 etc. By it the first three Saṁyojanas are broken S v.357, 376. It has four phases (angas): faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Order, and, further, the noble Sīlas S ii.68 sq.; v.362 sq.; A iii.12; iv.405; D iii.227 (in detail). Another set of four angas consists of sappurisa — saṁsevā, saddhammasavana, yonisomanasikāra, and dhammânudhammapaṭipatti S v.347, 404.

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Volovsky
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Re: Noble Individuals vs. Enlightened States

Post by Volovsky » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:46 pm

samseva wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:52 pm
But it's not.
Don't take dictionary as the ultimate truth. Check, how the word is used in the texts (sorry, I don't have time to do it myself). May be I'm wrong, but examples, where it is clearly not the state, should be from the canon.

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