Knowing and Seeing

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rightviewftw
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Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:28 pm

In the english language one can say
"I see" as in "I see your point", as in "I understand", as in "I get it"

Is there a reason to think that there is a similar expression in Pali and or Sanskrit?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:11 pm

You might want to have a look at this recent thread:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32864&p=488534#p488427

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rightviewftw
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:25 pm

This passage prompted me to consider that it is probably the case with Pali as with the English;
"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.

"I thought: 'It isn't through mere conviction alone that Alara Kalama declares, "I have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge." Certainly he dwells knowing & seeing this Dhamma.' So I went to him and said, 'To what extent do you declare that you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma?' When this was said, he declared the dimension of nothingness.

"I thought: 'Not only does Alara Kalama have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. I, too, have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the Dhamma that Alara Kalama declares he has entered & dwells in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.' So it was not long before I quickly entered & dwelled in that Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. I went to him and said, 'Friend Kalama, is this the extent to which you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge?'

"'Yes, my friend...'

"'This, friend, is the extent to which I, too, have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.'

"'It is a gain for us, my friend, a great gain for us, that we have such a companion in the holy life. So the Dhamma I declare I have entered & dwell in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge. And the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma I declare I have entered & dwell in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. The Dhamma I know is the Dhamma you know; the Dhamma you know is the Dhamma I know. As I am, so are you; as you are, so am I. Come friend, let us now lead this community together.'
For here the Bodhisatta proclaims knowing and seeing the teaching of Alara Kalama before the declaration of the Dimension of Nothingness and it is only after the declaration of the Dimension of Nothingness that the Bodhisatta endevours to enter&dwell in that Dhamma as to for himself realize it through direct knowledge.

It is still somewhat confusing because it seems like there is knowing and seeing of mere conviction and a certain knowing and seeing based on direct knowledge.
"I thought: 'It isn't through mere conviction alone that Alara Kalama declares, "I have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge." Certainly he dwells knowing & seeing this Dhamma.
:shrug:

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rightviewftw
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:01 pm

Which begets the question;
to what extent does a Sotapanna know and see the Dhamma?
"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."
It seems to me that a person who would have entered and dwelled in the cessation
They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless element: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, cessation, extinguishment.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world. This is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters.

would then be one gone beyond knowing and seeing to the extent of having direct knowledge of realization and is to that extent not merely a Sotapanna but one practicing for realization of fruition of Sakidagami in the context of the eight constituting the four pairs.
6. "The eight persons extolled by virtuous men constitute four pairs. They are the disciples of the Buddha and are worthy of offerings. Gifts given to them yield rich results. This precious jewel is the Sangha.[4]
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:38 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:25 pm
This passage prompted me to consider that it is probably the case with Pali as with the English;
"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.
Its just a translation and appears to be a faulty translation. Don't cling to any translator. They all make mistakes. When knowing & seeing the Dhamma occurs, this will be known & seen.
So far as lip-recital and oral recitation were concerned, I spoke with knowledge and the authority of the elders. I claimed to know and see, and so did others.

So kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, tāvatakeneva oṭṭhapahatamattena lapitalāpanamattena ñāṇavādañca vadāmi theravādañca, ‘jānāmi passāmī’ti ca paṭijānāmi ahañceva aññe ca.

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/sujato
As far as mere lip-reciting and rehearsal of his teaching went, I could speak with knowledge and assurance, and I claimed, ‘I know and see’—and there were others who did likewise.

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/bodhi
I, monks, as far as mere lip service, mere repetition were concerned, spoke the doctrine of knowledge, and the doctrine of the elders, and I claimed—I as well as others—that ‘I know, I see.’

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/horner

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rightviewftw
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:11 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:38 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:25 pm
This passage prompted me to consider that it is probably the case with Pali as with the English;
"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.
Its just a translation and appears to be a faulty translation. Don't cling to any translator. They all make mistakes. When knowing & seeing the Dhamma occurs, this will be known & seen.
So far as lip-recital and oral recitation were concerned, I spoke with knowledge and the authority of the elders. I claimed to know and see, and so did others.

So kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, tāvatakeneva oṭṭhapahatamattena lapitalāpanamattena ñāṇavādañca vadāmi theravādañca, ‘jānāmi passāmī’ti ca paṭijānāmi ahañceva aññe ca.

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/sujato
As far as mere lip-reciting and rehearsal of his teaching went, I could speak with knowledge and assurance, and I claimed, ‘I know and see’—and there were others who did likewise.

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/bodhi
I, monks, as far as mere lip service, mere repetition were concerned, spoke the doctrine of knowledge, and the doctrine of the elders, and I claimed—I as well as others—that ‘I know, I see.’

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/horner
So you hold that he claimed knowing and seeing falsely as in claimed knowing and seeing without knowing and seeing?

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DooDoot
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:59 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:11 pm
So you hold that he claimed knowing and seeing falsely as in claimed knowing and seeing without knowing and seeing?
Yes, it appears that what is the passage says. And then, at a later time, he was not interested in blind faith so he sought to realise the dimension of nothingness for himself.
claim
kleɪm/Submit
verb
1. state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could claim [without evidence] that I knew & saw — I, along with others [who were also blind faith disciples].
:candle:
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:01 pm
Which begets the question;
to what extent does a Sotapanna know and see the Dhamma?
Profoundly; life-changing; earth-ego-shattering; I imagine. :shock:
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:01 pm
It seems to me that a person who would have entered and dwelled in the cessation
They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless element: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the calming of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the destruction of craving, cessation, Nibbana.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world. This is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters.
I imagine Sotapanna experiences "cessation" ("nirodha"), similar to how Kondañña experienced cessation when hearing the 1st sermon but did not attain arahantship until hearing the 2nd sermon. Sotapanna is not the destruction of all (100% of) defilements, which only occurs to the arahant; even though the Sotapanna tastes or gains a footing in the Deathless. For example, MN 118 appears to say the practise of Anapanasati depends on "cessation". Therefore, it appears is a smaller cessation is required for a greater cessation until final cessation.
And how are the seven factors for awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening... persistence as a factor for awakening... rapture as a factor for awakening... serenity as a factor for awakening... concentration as a factor for awakening... equanimity as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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rightviewftw
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:31 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:59 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:11 pm
So you hold that he claimed knowing and seeing falsely as in claimed knowing and seeing without knowing and seeing?
Yes, it appears that what is the passage says. And then, at a later time, he was not interested in blind faith so he sought to realise the dimension of nothingness for himself.
I do not think that one can assert that it was a false claim without first equating knowing and seeing to direct knowledge based on entering and dwelling in that Dhamma, which is not established, thus if the meaning is Seeing as in Understanding he could rightfully claim to know and see the teaching of Alara Kalama due to understanding it.

Basically if we say that it was a false claim because Knowing and Seeing refers to a meditative attainment we need more evidence than claim being made because there is no evidence for the claim being false. We can't say that the Claim was false because Knowing and Seeing refers to a meditative attainment and that Knowing and Seeing refers to a meditative attainment because the Claim was false, that is saying that A is true because B is true an B is true because A is true.

paul
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by paul » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:07 pm

Knowing and seeing defined:
"2.1 INFLUXES ABANDONED BY SEEING
2.1.1 Seeing. The term dassana means “seeing, vision,” but has a more positive connotation than diṭṭhi (“view”), but is here synonymous with “right view” (sammā diṭṭhi). Dassana, as used in the Sabb‟- āsava Sutta, refers to the first of the four supramundane paths, that is, the path of streamwinning (sotā- patti,magga). It is so called because it gives us the first glimpse of nirvana, and that we are following the flow of wholesome states heading towards nirvana."
[...]
'2.1.3 Wise attention and right view
2.1.3.1 WISE ATTENTION. Wise attention (yoniso manasikāra) is knowing the skill in mental means (upāya,manasikāra) and attending in the right way (patha,manasikāra), and also where not to direct the attention [§9], so that influxes of sense-desire, of existence, or of ignorance do not arise or remain [§10].17 The Commentary says that wise attention leads to true knowledge (vijjā), that is, right view, the first path factor. This knowledge sets rolling the dependent ending of suffering, which ends formations, and so on and the ending of the whole mass of suffering, that is, the “rolling back” (vivaṭṭa) or breaking of the samsaric cycle (MA 1:64 f). It is in this sense that the Sutta declares that “the destruction of the influxes is for one who knows and sees, not for one who neither knows nor sees” [§3], that is, one who has wise attention.'--- Comments on MN 2, Piya Tan.

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