Knowing and Seeing

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rightviewftw
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Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:28 pm

In the english language one can say
"I see" as in "I see your point", as in "I understand", as in "I get it"

Is there a reason to think that there is a similar expression in Pali and or Sanskrit?
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Sam Vara
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:11 pm

You might want to have a look at this recent thread:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32864&p=488534#p488427

rightviewftw
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:25 pm

This passage prompted me to consider that it is probably the case with Pali as with the English;
"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.

"I thought: 'It isn't through mere conviction alone that Alara Kalama declares, "I have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge." Certainly he dwells knowing & seeing this Dhamma.' So I went to him and said, 'To what extent do you declare that you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma?' When this was said, he declared the dimension of nothingness.

"I thought: 'Not only does Alara Kalama have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. I, too, have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the Dhamma that Alara Kalama declares he has entered & dwells in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.' So it was not long before I quickly entered & dwelled in that Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. I went to him and said, 'Friend Kalama, is this the extent to which you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge?'

"'Yes, my friend...'

"'This, friend, is the extent to which I, too, have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.'

"'It is a gain for us, my friend, a great gain for us, that we have such a companion in the holy life. So the Dhamma I declare I have entered & dwell in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge. And the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma I declare I have entered & dwell in, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. The Dhamma I know is the Dhamma you know; the Dhamma you know is the Dhamma I know. As I am, so are you; as you are, so am I. Come friend, let us now lead this community together.'
For here the Bodhisatta proclaims knowing and seeing the teaching of Alara Kalama before the declaration of the Dimension of Nothingness and it is only after the declaration of the Dimension of Nothingness that the Bodhisatta endevours to enter&dwell in that Dhamma as to for himself realize it through direct knowledge.

It is still somewhat confusing because it seems like there is knowing and seeing of mere conviction and a certain knowing and seeing based on direct knowledge.
"I thought: 'It isn't through mere conviction alone that Alara Kalama declares, "I have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge." Certainly he dwells knowing & seeing this Dhamma.
:shrug:
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

rightviewftw
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:01 pm

Which begets the question;
to what extent does a Sotapanna know and see the Dhamma?
"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."
It seems to me that a person who would have entered and dwelled in the cessation
They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless element: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, cessation, extinguishment.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world. This is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters.

would then be one gone beyond knowing and seeing to the extent of having direct knowledge of realization and is to that extent not merely a Sotapanna but one practicing for realization of fruition of Sakidagami in the context of the eight constituting the four pairs.
6. "The eight persons extolled by virtuous men constitute four pairs. They are the disciples of the Buddha and are worthy of offerings. Gifts given to them yield rich results. This precious jewel is the Sangha.[4]
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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DooDoot
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:38 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:25 pm
This passage prompted me to consider that it is probably the case with Pali as with the English;
"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.
Its just a translation and appears to be a faulty translation. Don't cling to any translator. They all make mistakes. When knowing & seeing the Dhamma occurs, this will be known & seen.
So far as lip-recital and oral recitation were concerned, I spoke with knowledge and the authority of the elders. I claimed to know and see, and so did others.

So kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, tāvatakeneva oṭṭhapahatamattena lapitalāpanamattena ñāṇavādañca vadāmi theravādañca, ‘jānāmi passāmī’ti ca paṭijānāmi ahañceva aññe ca.

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/sujato
As far as mere lip-reciting and rehearsal of his teaching went, I could speak with knowledge and assurance, and I claimed, ‘I know and see’—and there were others who did likewise.

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/bodhi
I, monks, as far as mere lip service, mere repetition were concerned, spoke the doctrine of knowledge, and the doctrine of the elders, and I claimed—I as well as others—that ‘I know, I see.’

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/horner

rightviewftw
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:11 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:38 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:25 pm
This passage prompted me to consider that it is probably the case with Pali as with the English;
"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.
Its just a translation and appears to be a faulty translation. Don't cling to any translator. They all make mistakes. When knowing & seeing the Dhamma occurs, this will be known & seen.
So far as lip-recital and oral recitation were concerned, I spoke with knowledge and the authority of the elders. I claimed to know and see, and so did others.

So kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, tāvatakeneva oṭṭhapahatamattena lapitalāpanamattena ñāṇavādañca vadāmi theravādañca, ‘jānāmi passāmī’ti ca paṭijānāmi ahañceva aññe ca.

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/sujato
As far as mere lip-reciting and rehearsal of his teaching went, I could speak with knowledge and assurance, and I claimed, ‘I know and see’—and there were others who did likewise.

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/bodhi
I, monks, as far as mere lip service, mere repetition were concerned, spoke the doctrine of knowledge, and the doctrine of the elders, and I claimed—I as well as others—that ‘I know, I see.’

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/horner
So you hold that he claimed knowing and seeing falsely as in claimed knowing and seeing without knowing and seeing?
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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DooDoot
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:59 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:11 pm
So you hold that he claimed knowing and seeing falsely as in claimed knowing and seeing without knowing and seeing?
Yes, it appears that what is the passage says. And then, at a later time, he was not interested in blind faith so he sought to realise the dimension of nothingness for himself.
claim
kleɪm/Submit
verb
1. state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could claim [without evidence] that I knew & saw — I, along with others [who were also blind faith disciples].
:candle:
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:01 pm
Which begets the question;
to what extent does a Sotapanna know and see the Dhamma?
Profoundly; life-changing; earth-ego-shattering; I imagine. :shock:
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:01 pm
It seems to me that a person who would have entered and dwelled in the cessation
They turn their mind away from those things, and apply it to the deathless element: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the calming of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the destruction of craving, cessation, Nibbana.’ Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements. If they don’t attain the ending of defilements, with the ending of the five lower fetters they’re reborn spontaneously, because of their passion and love for that meditation. They are extinguished there, and are not liable to return from that world. This is the path and the practice for giving up the five lower fetters.
I imagine Sotapanna experiences "cessation" ("nirodha"), similar to how Kondañña experienced cessation when hearing the 1st sermon but did not attain arahantship until hearing the 2nd sermon. Sotapanna is not the destruction of all (100% of) defilements, which only occurs to the arahant; even though the Sotapanna tastes or gains a footing in the Deathless. For example, MN 118 appears to say the practise of Anapanasati depends on "cessation". Therefore, it appears is a smaller cessation is required for a greater cessation until final cessation.
And how are the seven factors for awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening... persistence as a factor for awakening... rapture as a factor for awakening... serenity as a factor for awakening... concentration as a factor for awakening... equanimity as a factor for awakening dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in relinquishment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

rightviewftw
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:31 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:59 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:11 pm
So you hold that he claimed knowing and seeing falsely as in claimed knowing and seeing without knowing and seeing?
Yes, it appears that what is the passage says. And then, at a later time, he was not interested in blind faith so he sought to realise the dimension of nothingness for himself.
I do not think that one can assert that it was a false claim without first equating knowing and seeing to direct knowledge based on entering and dwelling in that Dhamma, which is not established, thus if the meaning is Seeing as in Understanding he could rightfully claim to know and see the teaching of Alara Kalama due to understanding it.

Basically if we say that it was a false claim because Knowing and Seeing refers to a meditative attainment we need more evidence than claim being made because there is no evidence for the claim being false. We can't say that the Claim was false because Knowing and Seeing refers to a meditative attainment and that Knowing and Seeing refers to a meditative attainment because the Claim was false, that is saying that A is true because B is true an B is true because A is true.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

paul
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by paul » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:07 pm

Knowing and seeing defined:
"2.1 INFLUXES ABANDONED BY SEEING
2.1.1 Seeing. The term dassana means “seeing, vision,” but has a more positive connotation than diṭṭhi (“view”), but is here synonymous with “right view” (sammā diṭṭhi). Dassana, as used in the Sabb‟- āsava Sutta, refers to the first of the four supramundane paths, that is, the path of streamwinning (sotā- patti,magga). It is so called because it gives us the first glimpse of nirvana, and that we are following the flow of wholesome states heading towards nirvana."
[...]
'2.1.3 Wise attention and right view
2.1.3.1 WISE ATTENTION. Wise attention (yoniso manasikāra) is knowing the skill in mental means (upāya,manasikāra) and attending in the right way (patha,manasikāra), and also where not to direct the attention [§9], so that influxes of sense-desire, of existence, or of ignorance do not arise or remain [§10].17 The Commentary says that wise attention leads to true knowledge (vijjā), that is, right view, the first path factor. This knowledge sets rolling the dependent ending of suffering, which ends formations, and so on and the ending of the whole mass of suffering, that is, the “rolling back” (vivaṭṭa) or breaking of the samsaric cycle (MA 1:64 f). It is in this sense that the Sutta declares that “the destruction of the influxes is for one who knows and sees, not for one who neither knows nor sees” [§3], that is, one who has wise attention.'--- Comments on MN 2, Piya Tan.

Padipa
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by Padipa » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:06 pm

The "awakened ones" only point to the way: seekers must make it happen. The Buddha was, first and foremost, a teacher--he taught for 45 years. He is known to have said "ehipassiko," or "come and see"--for yourself. There are different kinds (levels) of knowledge, but knowledge for its own sake is pointlessness (Anattho). All knowledge exists for individual transformation--self-actualization. Seeing, as we say, is believing. The Buddha did not want anyone having blind faith in the Dhamma: he wanted people who experienced its truth firsthand (as Emerson says), through his/her own sight: (Dibbacakkhu), his/her own "divine eye" manifests itself upon seeing the Dhamma via experiential knowledge! This kind of thinking, perhaps, provides some etymological underpinnings for the "third eye" metaphor. BEST!

ToVincent
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by ToVincent » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:57 pm

Name it "spirit", name it "mind", name it "thought" - Citta is once and before all, what searches to comprehend. Citta is what is supposed to comprehend. And citta is finally what comprehends (what "sees" with its spirit's eye, once liberated).


A body formed for flight hast thou, O Charger; swift as the wind in motion is thy spirit.
tava śarīram patayiṣṇv arvan tava cittaṁ vāta iva dhrajīmān |
RV. 1.163.11

Naught is to-day, to-morrow naught. Who comprehends the mystery?
We must address ourselves unto another's thought, and lost is then the hope we formed.
na nūnam asti no śvaḥ kas tad veda yad adbhutam |
anyasya cittam abhi saṁcareṇyam utādhītaṁ vi naśyati |
RV. 1.170.01
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

paul
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by paul » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:50 pm

(Dibbacakkhu), his/her own "divine eye" manifests itself upon seeing the Dhamma via experiential knowledge!
[/quote]

Dibbacakkhu refers to one of the five mundane higher powers. The Dhamma eye is a characteristic attained on stream entry due to knowledge of impermanence. The former is an aspect of samatha meditation and the latter an attainment of insight, they are two different things, the latter being an essential to progress:

“And while this explanation was being given, there arose to Ven. Kondañña the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”—SN 56.11
Last edited by paul on Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

rightviewftw
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:05 am

paul wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:50 pm
(Dibbacakkhu), his/her own "divine eye" manifests itself upon seeing the Dhamma via experiential knowledge!
this meaning is certainly the most obvious and one i do not deny, being the realization of "the meditative attainment".

However if someone asked me today what it means id say that as i understand the Dhamma there is the knowing and seeing dependent on direct knowledge due to a realization of a particular Dhamma and that such knowing & seeing is beyond conviction.

I would also say that it seems to me like the Bodhisatta was said to know & see the Dhamma of Alara Kalama before having realized for himself the full extent of the meditative attainment or the attainments that Alara Kalama was teaching. Thus it remains unclear to me whether or not the term is rightfully used when referring to knowing and seeing based on conviction or if the Bodhisatta was referring to knowing and seeing the lower attainments in that case.

Fwiw i think it refers exclusively to the knowing & seeing beyond conviction and that the Bodhisatta was in fact along with others proclaiming the knowing & seeing of the lower attainments but that is my personal conviction. I am inclined to think that this is the reasonable inference of the two because i do not see the evidence supporting the other theory.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

pegembara
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by pegembara » Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:38 am

It seems one who has right samadhi will automatically have the right knowing and seeing.
"For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

"For a person who knows & sees things as they actually are, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I feel disenchantment.' It is in the nature of things that a person who knows & sees things as they actually are feels disenchantment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

rightviewftw
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Re: Knowing and Seeing

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:52 am

double post
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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