pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

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rightviewftw
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pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:39 pm

Gihi Sutta (AN 5.179). The relevant verse is: “..ariyasāvako pāṇātipātā paṭiviratō hoti, adinnādānā paṭiviratō hoti, kāmesu­micchā­cārā paṭiviratō hoti, musāvādā paṭiviratō hoti, surā­meraya­majja­pa­mā­daṭṭhānā paṭiviratō hōti“.
However, “pativiratō hōti” does not mean “abstains from” as translated at many online sites; it means “does not do with liking”.
Is this rightfully said?

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:02 pm

i have never seen diacritics over o or e. don't think they're supposed to have them
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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by dylanj » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:20 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:02 pm
i have never seen diacritics over o or e. don't think they're supposed to have them
they're just indicating that the vowel is long similar to the other vowels with diacritics, which is correct. they're generally not used because there's no short version but it's not as if any form of romanization has an objective basis to it, & i couldn't point out a single form that is dominant as standard
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Nicolas » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:26 pm

Which translation do you think makes most sense, considering the following sutta?
Cunda Sutta wrote: And how is one made pure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the taking of life, paṭivirato hoti the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he paṭivirato hoti taking what is not given. He does not take, in the manner of a thief, things in a village or a wilderness that belong to others and have not been given by them. Abandoning sexual misconduct, he paṭivirato hoti sexual misconduct. He does not get sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man. This is how one is made pure in three ways by bodily action.

And how is one made pure in four ways by verbal action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the telling of lies, paṭivirato hoti telling lies. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, ‘Come & tell, good man, what you know’: If he doesn’t know, he says, ‘I don’t know.’ If he does know, he says, ‘I know.’ If he hasn’t seen, he says, ‘I haven’t seen.’ If he has seen, he says, ’I have seen.’ Thus he doesn’t consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning divisive speech, he paṭivirato hoti divisive speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord. Abandoning harsh speech, he paṭivirato hoti harsh speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing & pleasing to people at large. Abandoning idle chatter, he paṭivirato hoti idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is based in fact, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, timely, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal. This is how one is made pure in four ways by verbal action.
It seems pretty clear to me that it involves the non-doing of these actions, not the disliking of their doing.

Note: the original context of the quote is from this page: What is the only Akusala Removed by a Sōtapanna?, where it argues that a sotapanna can still break the five precepts, in part based on this translation argument.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:28 pm

Ty Nicolas,
is there another considerably/significantly much more precise term for "not doing" in this context? That arguably could've been used to communicate that exact meaning.
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Parallel Dhammapada Reading
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"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:36 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:26 pm
Cunda Sutta"]
And how is one made pure in three ways by bodily action?...
Does anybody know if Cunda was Ariya?
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:40 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:26 pm
in part based on this translation argument.
how so?
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Nicolas » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:06 pm

1. I don't know Pali -- someone else will have to answer your question.

2. It doesn't matter whether or not Cunda was an ariya. Nevertheless, it would seem that in the context of the sutta, he was not. He takes refuge at the end.

3. I can't speak for the author, but it seems that he is using that argument (amongst others) to say that a sotapanna doesn't necessarily abstain from breaking the precepts.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:09 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:06 pm
3. I can't speak for the author, but it seems that he is using that argument (amongst others) to say that a sotapanna doesn't necessarily abstain from breaking the precepts.
I do not think this is alone in any way invalidates the credibility or strengthens the credibility of the opposition of the suggested interpretation but we should keep the possibility of such bias in mind going forward. Do you agree?
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
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Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Nicolas » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:14 pm

Yes.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Lal » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:06 am

@rightviewftw:
Sorry for the delay in replying to your pm. I just saw it.

The tendency to do break the five precepts (or to do dasa akusala in general), reduces in steps as one follows the Path.
The steps are arati, virati, pativirati, and veramani.

For example, if a person starts off with a liking for fishing, that reduces first to arati stage (i.e, the liking to go fishing is reduced), and then to virati stage. And then, when one comprehends Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and attains the Sotapanna stage, any liking for breaking the five precepts drops significantly. That is because one realizes by then that it is unfruitful to do immoral actions for temporary satisfaction.

Pativirati (pati + virati) means basically getting strongly bonded to the virati stage. Now, if one breaks a precept that is not done with any liking for it.

Veramani is the strongest. That means one will NEVER break the five precepts knowingly. This is true only for an Arahant.

There are only five things that a Sotapanna WILL NOT do under any circumstance: killing one's mother, killing one's father, killing an Arahant, injure a Buddha, following a different teacher than the Buddha, commit Sangha bedha (which is related to propagating wrong Dhamma).

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:07 am

Lal wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:06 am
Pativirati (pati + virati) means basically getting strongly bonded to the virati stage. Now, if one breaks a precept that is not done with any liking for it.
This sound weird. How does one intentionally break a precept without liking [and disliking]? Is this similar to coitus interruptus? Can you kindly provide some examples? Thanks
Lal wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:06 am
Veramani is the strongest. That means one will NEVER break the five precepts knowingly. This is true only for an Arahant. There are only five things that a Sotapanna WILL NOT do under any circumstance: killing one's mother, killing one's father, killing an Arahant, injure a Buddha, following a different teacher than the Buddha, commit Sangha bedha (which is related to propagating wrong Dhamma).
Why would laypeople take precepts if only arahants cannot break them?

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:30 am

Lal wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:06 am
@rightviewftw:
Sorry for the delay in replying to your pm. I just saw it.

The tendency to do break the five precepts (or to do dasa akusala in general), reduces in steps as one follows the Path.
The steps are arati, virati, pativirati, and veramani.

For example, if a person starts off with a liking for fishing, that reduces first to arati stage (i.e, the liking to go fishing is reduced), and then to virati stage. And then, when one comprehends Tilakkhana (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and attains the Sotapanna stage, any liking for breaking the five precepts drops significantly. That is because one realizes by then that it is unfruitful to do immoral actions for temporary satisfaction.

Pativirati (pati + virati) means basically getting strongly bonded to the virati stage. Now, if one breaks a precept that is not done with any liking for it.

Veramani is the strongest. That means one will NEVER break the five precepts knowingly. This is true only for an Arahant.

There are only five things that a Sotapanna WILL NOT do under any circumstance: killing one's mother, killing one's father, killing an Arahant, injure a Buddha, following a different teacher than the Buddha, commit Sangha bedha (which is related to propagating wrong Dhamma).
can you tell more about how you arrive at this and why you think that other translators supposely miss this? Also what is the difference between arati and virati in that progression?
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Lal » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:37 am

Rightviewftw said: “can you tell more about how you arrive at this and why you think that other translators supposely miss this? Also what is the difference between arati and virati in that progression?”

These conclusions are arrived after many years of studying Dhamma. I do not remember each single sutta where I find these explanations. Of course many came from Waharaka Thero’s desanas and he did not (and could not for practical reasons) give reference for each “fact item”. But these days, I do try to keep records of suttas whenever possible.

Furthermore, many of these things can be figured out by each person. I do not mean figuring out the meanings of Pali words. I mean what is implied by these key words, when the meanings of those words are pointed out. But of course, that does not work if the meanings provided are not correct. Then the question arises as to how figures out whose translations are correct. The only way to determine that (as I see it), is to see whether that translator’s work is inter-consistent, i.e., those translations can provide consistent interpretations for ANY sutta in the Tipitaka.

Let me give an example: One of the best Pali-English dictionaries that I have seen is “https://www.budsas.org/ebud/dict-pe/dictpe-01-a.htm”.
- However, even in that dictionary, the meaning of all four words arati, vrati, pativirati, and veramani are listed as “abstinence”. So, in analyzing several suttas, one may draw wrong conclusions from some of those suttas, because that translation is correct only for the Pali word “veramani”. Abstinence is a very strong word: It means one will absolutely not do something. But pativirati is a more “mild” word; it means one really does not like to do it, but some extreme conditions may force one to it.

For example, a Sotapanna would not take a life with even a trace of liking. But there were many who had attained the Sotapanna stage during the time of the Buddha, and many of them were “householders”. They were married, had children, and had to take care of their families. So, we can clearly see that they were likely to had been engaged in some activities that clearly led to killing of animals. Just to take a simple example, suppose a child is playing in a playground stepped into a nest of ants. The ants start going up child’s legs. The child would be terrified and start screaming. If the father was a Sotapanna, he would of course wipe those ants off the legs of the child killing many of those ants. He would do that not with any liking, but he just HAD TO do it.

So, one would learn about these “subtleties” as one learns Dhamma. In my opinion, it is not that productive to spend time on English translations of deep suttas for two reasons:
- First is that basic foundation is necessary, like the five precepts (see, for example, "https://puredhamma.net/three-levels-of- ... t-by-them/") and dasa akusala, and the basic idea of paticca samuppada (which I have recently discussed in brief at the forum "viewtopic.php?f=46&p=479526#p479526".
- Second is that most English translations of key Pali words like anicca and anatta are not correct. Again, I have pointed this out in the above mentioned forum several months ago. I know that many of you do not agree. Only thing I can do is to answer any reasonable questions on what I have written; but one must quote what I stated and explain why that is not correct.

I would urge anyone interested to think about this general outline. We can discuss your original question on "pativirati" in more detail if needed.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:41 am

Lal wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:37 am
For example, a Sotapanna would not take a life with even a trace of liking. But there were many who had attained the Sotapanna stage during the time of the Buddha, and many of them were “householders”. They were married, had children, and had to take care of their families. So, we can clearly see that they were likely to had been engaged in some activities that clearly led to killing of animals. Just to take a simple example, suppose a child is playing in a playground stepped into a nest of ants. The ants start going up child’s legs. The child would be terrified and start screaming. If the father was a Sotapanna, he would of course wipe those ants off the legs of the child killing many of those ants. He would do that not with any liking, but he just HAD TO do it.
I think the father has liking for the child.

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