pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

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rightviewftw
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pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:39 pm

Gihi Sutta (AN 5.179). The relevant verse is: “..ariyasāvako pāṇātipātā paṭiviratō hoti, adinnādānā paṭiviratō hoti, kāmesu­micchā­cārā paṭiviratō hoti, musāvādā paṭiviratō hoti, surā­meraya­majja­pa­mā­daṭṭhānā paṭiviratō hōti“.
However, “pativiratō hōti” does not mean “abstains from” as translated at many online sites; it means “does not do with liking”.
Is this rightfully said?

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:02 pm

i have never seen diacritics over o or e. don't think they're supposed to have them
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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by dylanj » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:20 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:02 pm
i have never seen diacritics over o or e. don't think they're supposed to have them
they're just indicating that the vowel is long similar to the other vowels with diacritics, which is correct. they're generally not used because there's no short version but it's not as if any form of romanization has an objective basis to it, & i couldn't point out a single form that is dominant as standard
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Nicolas » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:26 pm

Which translation do you think makes most sense, considering the following sutta?
Cunda Sutta wrote: And how is one made pure in three ways by bodily action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the taking of life, paṭivirato hoti the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings. Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he paṭivirato hoti taking what is not given. He does not take, in the manner of a thief, things in a village or a wilderness that belong to others and have not been given by them. Abandoning sexual misconduct, he paṭivirato hoti sexual misconduct. He does not get sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man. This is how one is made pure in three ways by bodily action.

And how is one made pure in four ways by verbal action? There is the case where a certain person, abandoning the telling of lies, paṭivirato hoti telling lies. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, ‘Come & tell, good man, what you know’: If he doesn’t know, he says, ‘I don’t know.’ If he does know, he says, ‘I know.’ If he hasn’t seen, he says, ‘I haven’t seen.’ If he has seen, he says, ’I have seen.’ Thus he doesn’t consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning divisive speech, he paṭivirato hoti divisive speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord. Abandoning harsh speech, he paṭivirato hoti harsh speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing & pleasing to people at large. Abandoning idle chatter, he paṭivirato hoti idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is based in fact, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, timely, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal. This is how one is made pure in four ways by verbal action.
It seems pretty clear to me that it involves the non-doing of these actions, not the disliking of their doing.

Note: the original context of the quote is from this page: What is the only Akusala Removed by a Sōtapanna?, where it argues that a sotapanna can still break the five precepts, in part based on this translation argument.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:28 pm

Ty Nicolas,
is there another considerably/significantly much more precise term for "not doing" in this context? That arguably could've been used to communicate that exact meaning.
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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:36 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:26 pm
Cunda Sutta"]
And how is one made pure in three ways by bodily action?...
Does anybody know if Cunda was Ariya?
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:40 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:26 pm
in part based on this translation argument.
how so?
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How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Nicolas » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:06 pm

1. I don't know Pali -- someone else will have to answer your question.

2. It doesn't matter whether or not Cunda was an ariya. Nevertheless, it would seem that in the context of the sutta, he was not. He takes refuge at the end.

3. I can't speak for the author, but it seems that he is using that argument (amongst others) to say that a sotapanna doesn't necessarily abstain from breaking the precepts.

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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:09 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:06 pm
3. I can't speak for the author, but it seems that he is using that argument (amongst others) to say that a sotapanna doesn't necessarily abstain from breaking the precepts.
I do not think this is alone in any way invalidates the credibility or strengthens the credibility of the opposition of the suggested interpretation but we should keep the possibility of such bias in mind going forward. Do you agree?
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How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
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Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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Re: pativiratō hōti - interesting translation from by puredhamma.net

Post by Nicolas » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:14 pm

Yes.

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