Why citassa and not just citta?

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ToVincent
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Why citassa and not just citta?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:34 pm

Just wondering why there is this use of cittassa instead of citta, in some particular occurences.
And I came with the following.
Does that make any "sense"?

Assa = Gen.Dat.sg.of ayaṁ = this.As in "this mind".
But also:
Assa = opt. of atthi [Sk. syāt >> {opt. ac. sg.} √ अस् as]
√ अस् as
- to become (BṛĀrUp.)

Cittassa (citta-assa,) seems to be the existential form of the Citta. The same way that aham-asmi ("I am",) is the existential form of satta.

This is the "Being" form of the "cosmic" (immaterial) Citta.
When one Citta gets liberated, it is from the bound of this existential citta.
With the origination of name-and-form there is the origination of mind.
Nāmarūpasamudayā cittassa samudayo.
SN 47.42
The defiled mind is cleansed by exertion.
upakkiliṭṭhassa, visākhe, cittassa upakkamena pariyodapanā hoti.
AN 3.70
Dwell contemplating mind in mind … in order to know mind as it has come to be.
citte cittānupassino viharatha ātāpino sampajānā ekodibhūtā vippasannacittā samāhitā ekaggacittā, cittassa yathābhūtaṃ.
SN 47.4
Because, bhikkhus, that foolish, incompetent, unskilful bhikkhu does not pick up the attribute of his own mind. Tathā hi so, bhikkhave, bālo abyatto akusalo bhikkhu sakassa cittassa nimittaṃ na uggaṇhāti.
SN 47.8
Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object. This is called the faculty of concentration.
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vossaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā labhati samādhiṃ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṃ—idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, samādhindriyaṃ.
SN 48.9
See Note* below on Vossaggārammaṇa, etc.
It is, bhikkhus, when concentration by mindfulness of breathing has been developed and cultivated that no shaking or trembling occurs in the body, and no shaking or trembling occurs in the mind.
Ānāpānassatisamādhissa, bhikkhave, bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā neva kāyassa iñjitattaṃ vā hoti phanditattaṃ vā, na cittassa iñjitattaṃ vā hoti phanditattaṃ vā.
SN 54.7
The world is led around by mind;
By mind it’s dragged here and there.
Mind is the one thing that has
All under its control.
Cittena nīyati loko,
cittena parikassati;
Cittassa ekadhammassa,
sabbeva vasamanvagū'ti.
SN 1.62

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

* Note from SN 48.9

Vossaggārammaṇa:
(lit. having undertaken the relinquishing of the support).
Vossagga [=ossagga; ava+sṛj]
- relinquishing; handing over.
Ossagga,[fr.ossajati]
Ossajati (ava-sṛj)
- To give up,relinquish,renounce.

Ārammaṇa means a support (Sk: āsthāna) and something to grasp on (Sk: grabhaṇa - √ग्रह् grah - to perceive (with the organs of sense or with [mánas] ) , observe , recognise RV. VS. ŚBr. MuṇḍUp. ŚvetUp.)

Controversial: आलम्ब् ālamb [ā-√ लम्ब् lamb] OR आरम्भण ārambhaṇa [act. ārabh] √ रभ् rabh [linked to √ लभ् labh]

अव ava - ind.
off , away RV.

√ सृज् sṛj
- to release RV. AV.
- to cause to let loose , let go , create Br.

(E.g. abandoning lust for form, implies that the ārammaṇa (the hold you have on the support of) form is cut off - Māra finds an opportunity and an ārammaṇaṃ (a support and something to hold on) to someone not mindful).
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Dmytro
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Re: Why citassa and not just citta?

Post by Dmytro » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:10 pm

Hi Vincent,
ToVincent wrote:Just wondering why there is this use of cittassa instead of citta, in some particular occurences.
It's an ending.
-ssa

1. (-assa) m. n. sg. dat. gen. buddhassa, phalassa, tassa

https://dhamma.ru/paali/tables/palisufi.htm

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Re: Why citassa and not just citta?

Post by maranadhammomhi » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:10 pm

ToVincent wrote:Just wondering why there is this use of cittassa instead of citta, in some particular occurences.
And I came with the following.
Does that make any "sense"?

Assa = Gen.Dat.sg.of ayaṁ = this.As in "this mind".
But also:
Assa = opt. of atthi [Sk. syāt >> {opt. ac. sg.} √ अस् as]
√ अस् as
- to become (BṛĀrUp.)

Cittassa (citta-assa,) seems to be the existential form of the Citta. The same way that aham-asmi ("I am",) is the existential form of satta.

This is the "Being" form of the "cosmic" (immaterial) Citta.
When one Citta gets liberated, it is from the bound of this existential citta.
With the origination of name-and-form there is the origination of mind.
Nāmarūpasamudayā cittassa samudayo.
SN 47.42
The defiled mind is cleansed by exertion.
upakkiliṭṭhassa, visākhe, cittassa upakkamena pariyodapanā hoti.
AN 3.70
Dwell contemplating mind in mind … in order to know mind as it has come to be.
citte cittānupassino viharatha ātāpino sampajānā ekodibhūtā vippasannacittā samāhitā ekaggacittā, cittassa yathābhūtaṃ.
SN 47.4
Because, bhikkhus, that foolish, incompetent, unskilful bhikkhu does not pick up the attribute of his own mind. Tathā hi so, bhikkhave, bālo abyatto akusalo bhikkhu sakassa cittassa nimittaṃ na uggaṇhāti.
SN 47.8
Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object. This is called the faculty of concentration.
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vossaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā labhati samādhiṃ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṃ—idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, samādhindriyaṃ.
SN 48.9
See Note* below on Vossaggārammaṇa, etc.
It is, bhikkhus, when concentration by mindfulness of breathing has been developed and cultivated that no shaking or trembling occurs in the body, and no shaking or trembling occurs in the mind.
Ānāpānassatisamādhissa, bhikkhave, bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā neva kāyassa iñjitattaṃ vā hoti phanditattaṃ vā, na cittassa iñjitattaṃ vā hoti phanditattaṃ vā.
SN 54.7
The world is led around by mind;
By mind it’s dragged here and there.
Mind is the one thing that has
All under its control.
Cittena nīyati loko,
cittena parikassati;
Cittassa ekadhammassa,
sabbeva vasamanvagū'ti.
SN 1.62

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

* Note from SN 48.9

Vossaggārammaṇa:
(lit. having undertaken the relinquishing of the support).
Vossagga [=ossagga; ava+sṛj]
- relinquishing; handing over.
Ossagga,[fr.ossajati]
Ossajati (ava-sṛj)
- To give up,relinquish,renounce.

Ārammaṇa means a support (Sk: āsthāna) and something to grasp on (Sk: grabhaṇa - √ग्रह् grah - to perceive (with the organs of sense or with [mánas] ) , observe , recognise RV. VS. ŚBr. MuṇḍUp. ŚvetUp.)

Controversial: आलम्ब् ālamb [ā-√ लम्ब् lamb] OR आरम्भण ārambhaṇa [act. ārabh] √ रभ् rabh [linked to √ लभ् labh]

अव ava - ind.
off , away RV.

√ सृज् sṛj
- to release RV. AV.
- to cause to let loose , let go , create Br.

(E.g. abandoning lust for form, implies that the ārammaṇa (the hold you have on the support of) form is cut off - Māra finds an opportunity and an ārammaṇaṃ (a support and something to hold on) to someone not mindful).
-assa is the singular declension for masculine & neuter nounds with stem in -a (citt-a) in the dative & genitive cases. Nouns declined in the genitive have the added meaning "of", in the dative, "for" or "to". So -assa here just means of/for/to (citta). Context gives the rest, as shown by the examples you give.

With the origination of name-and-form there is the origination of mind.
Nāmarūpasamudayā cittassa samudayo.

-assa is the "of (mind) here.
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ToVincent
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Re: Why citassa and not just citta?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:43 pm

Dmytro wrote: It's an ending.
Hi,
Would you be more precise as "why this ending in these particular instances" and not elswhere?
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

ToVincent
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Re: Why citassa and not just citta?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:44 pm

maranadhammomhi wrote: With the origination of name-and-form there is the origination of mind.
Nāmarūpasamudayā cittassa samudayo.

-assa is the "of (mind) here.
Why not cettosamudayo as in
cettovimutti = liberation "of" mind

or
Internal placidity and unification "of" mind
sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ
or
Purity "of" mind
cittapārisuddhi
or some compound like
satisambojjhaṅga
enlightenment factor "of" mindfulness)?

Also, your remark does not hold much, with the rest of the quotes above.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

ToVincent
Posts: 395
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Re: Why citassa and not just citta?

Post by ToVincent » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:43 pm

Dmytro wrote: It's an ending.
Ā va ṛñjasa ūrjāṁ vyuṣṭiṣv indram maruto rodasī anaktana |
ubhe yathā no ahanī sacābhuvā sadaḥ-sado varivasyāta udbhidā ||
I grasp at you when power and strength begin to dawn: bedew ye, Indra and the Maruts, Heaven and Earth,
That Day and Night, in every hall of sacrifice, may wait on us and bless us when they first spring forth.
RV. 10.076.01
We have seen above that Assa in Pali corresponds to Syāt in Sanskrit.
Syāta, in the above quote, is also the optative pl. of √ अस् as.
In this instance, it appears in the late RV. - on which it seems to me, quite evidently, that the Buddha did draw a lot of his religious (AND grammatical) learning as a Kśatrya - like on other late Vedic literature.
You can see here, that the blessing is an option on the possible "being" of Day and Night.
No Day and Night, no blessing.

Suffixes are not just "endings". They usually have a purpose attached to them.
Your answer is quite derogative, by its briefness.

You took the example of "phalassa" (fruit, result).
If one both makes an aspiration and makes no aspiration and one leads the holy life wisely, one is still able to procure fruit (phalassa).
MN 126
We are in the exact same context than the above. If "leading the holy life wisely" IS not; then there is no fruit. If there is no "EXISTENCE" of the wisely led holy life; there is no fruit.

Seems to me like there is some "EXISTENTIAL" underlying in Assa - and not just an "ending".

I am not a grammarian; and I don't pretend to ever, ever be.
But philosophy will always prevail, when grammar does not contradict it. And contempt won't help to bring it down.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

maranadhammomhi
Posts: 159
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Re: Why citassa and not just citta?

Post by maranadhammomhi » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:18 pm

ToVincent wrote:
maranadhammomhi wrote: With the origination of name-and-form there is the origination of mind.
Nāmarūpasamudayā cittassa samudayo.

-assa is the "of (mind) here.
Why not cettosamudayo as in
cettovimutti = liberation "of" mind

or
Internal placidity and unification "of" mind
sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ
or
Purity "of" mind
cittapārisuddhi
or some compound like
satisambojjhaṅga
enlightenment factor "of" mindfulness)?

Also, your remark does not hold much, with the rest of the quotes above.
In pāḷi nouns are declined to indicate relations similar to english prepositions. When you say cettovimutti that is a feminine -i stem noun. In the nominative singular it would be cetovimutti, in the genitive or dative singular it would be cettovimuttiyā. Depending on the grammar of the sentence & the role of the noun it will take up a different declension.

In your examples "of" is there in the sense of a descriptor, you could also render those words as mental liberation, mental unification, mental purity, mindfulness enlightenment factor. Grammatically, those are nominative nouns using a nominative declension & they're compounded in a way that functions similar to an adjective, & could be translated using English "of". But the words are nominative, indicating a subject, not genitive or dative.

It does hold with the rest of the quotes. Those words are using genitive/dative declension. That does not mean the translation will necessarily use the English "of" or "for" or "to.
Dwell contemplating mind in mind … in order to know mind as it has come to be.
citte cittānupassino viharatha ātāpino sampajānā ekodibhūtā vippasannacittā samāhitā ekaggacittā, cittassa yathābhūtaṃ.
SN 47.4
yāthabhūta means "true reality", "conformity with the truth". citassa yāthabhūta could then be rendered "the true reality of the mind".
Because, bhikkhus, that foolish, incompetent, unskilful bhikkhu does not pick up the attribute of his own mind. Tathā hi so, bhikkhave, bālo abyatto akusalo bhikkhu sakassa cittassa nimittaṃ na uggaṇhāti.
SN 47.8
cittassa nimittaṁ - attribute (nimitta) of the mind.
Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object. This is called the faculty of concentration.
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vossaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā labhati samādhiṃ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṃ—idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, samādhindriyaṃ.
SN 48.9
See Note* below on Vossaggārammaṇa, etc.
labhati cittassa ekaggataṁ - labhati (to receive/gain 3rd person singular) + cittassa + ekaggataṁ (one-pointed)...he gains one pointedness of mind.
It is, bhikkhus, when concentration by mindfulness of breathing has been developed and cultivated that no shaking or trembling occurs in the body, and no shaking or trembling occurs in the mind.
Ānāpānassatisamādhissa, bhikkhave, bhāvitattā bahulīkatattā neva kāyassa iñjitattaṃ vā hoti phanditattaṃ vā, na cittassa iñjitattaṃ vā hoti phanditattaṃ vā.
SN 54.7
na cittassa iñjittaṁ vā hoti phanditattaṁ vā. - neither (na) shaking (iñjittaṁ) of mind (cittassa) or (vā)...
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ToVincent
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Re: Why citassa and not just citta?

Post by ToVincent » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:16 am

maranadhammomhi wrote:...
I did not understand a word of what you are saying - (particularly in relation to what I am saying).

And for Buddha's sake - please - yāthabhūta does not mean "true reality", or "conformity with the truth" but literally "according to (what) have become". Huge difference.

Also, please accord your violins with the grammar pundit above, and its "ending".
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

thomaslaw
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Re: Why citassa and not just citta?

Post by thomaslaw » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:31 am

ToVincent wrote:
Dmytro wrote: It's an ending.
Ā va ṛñjasa ūrjāṁ vyuṣṭiṣv indram maruto rodasī anaktana |
ubhe yathā no ahanī sacābhuvā sadaḥ-sado varivasyāta udbhidā ||
I grasp at you when power and strength begin to dawn: bedew ye, Indra and the Maruts, Heaven and Earth,
That Day and Night, in every hall of sacrifice, may wait on us and bless us when they first spring forth.
RV. 10.076.01
We have seen above that Assa in Pali corresponds to Syāt in Sanskrit.
Syāta, in the above quote, is also the optative pl. of √ अस् as.
In this instance, it appears in the late RV. - on which it seems to me, quite evidently, that the Buddha did draw a lot of his religious (AND grammatical) learning as a Kśatrya - like on other late Vedic literature.
The Buddha did not speak the Sanskrit and Pali.
ToVincent wrote: ... If there is no "EXISTENCE" of the wisely led holy life; there is no fruit.

Seems to me like there is some "EXISTENTIAL" underlying in Assa - and not just an "ending".

I am not a grammarian; and I don't pretend to ever, ever be.
But philosophy will always prevail, when grammar does not contradict it. And contempt won't help to bring it down.
What is 'existence' or 'existential' underlying in assa (e.g. cittassa, buddhassa, phalassa) in the Pali texts?

Thomas

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Re: Why citassa and not just citta?

Post by maranadhammomhi » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:30 am

ToVincent wrote:
maranadhammomhi wrote:...
I did not understand a word of what you are saying - (particularly in relation to what I am saying).

And for Buddha's sake - please - yāthabhūta does not mean "true reality", or "conformity with the truth" but literally "according to (what) have become". Huge difference.

Also, please accord your violins with the grammar pundit above, and its "ending".
I used dictionaries for the definition of yāthabhūta, sorry if you are not satisfied, but there is flexibility from translation to translation when pāḷi is translated, according to context & other conditions.

I'm sorry you don't understand. I'd recommend reading Pāli Primer by Lily De Silva. This is really just a matter of noun declension & is explained quickly in most textbooks.
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Re: Why citassa and not just citta?

Post by maranadhammomhi » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:36 am

OP: after reading through this thread it is clear you lack relevant understanding of pāli grammar - you continue to treat -assa as a "word" to be translated. It is a noun declension. When you look a noun up in a dictionary you find its stem form, e.g. buddha, when you read it in actual pāḷi texts the nouns are declined according to the case they take on, i.e. nominative/accusative/genitive/dative/instrumental/ablative/locative/vocative - a declension, ending, is added to the stem. For nominative singular the masculine stem word buddha is declined by adding -o, so it is buddho. Citta is a neuter noun with -a stem, & in the genitive & dative cases it is terminated with -assa. That is what you are seeing in all these examples, "assa" is not a word to translate here - even if it was a compound noun it'd be unlikely that "assa" is the stem of the compounded word, because it would still be declined with a case ending; further in pāḷi compound words do not always use the entire stem, or use it in the same form.
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Re: Why citassa and not just citta?

Post by ToVincent » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:57 pm

maranadhammomhi wrote:even if it was a compound noun it'd be unlikely that "assa" is the stem of the compounded word, because it would still be declined with a case ending; further in pāḷi compound words do not always use the entire stem, or use it in the same form.
Glad to see that we are getting (at last,) on the same plane.
I was not talking declension (nāma), but compounds (samāsa). And in this case, the particular use of a noun compounded with a verb.
Usually this is done with verbs like kar (kṛ,) bhū, as, and the sort (with a general meaning of becoming).
In our case a conditional assa (or (the Pali) siyā) would be added to citta.
Again see the Sanskrit reference (RV. 10.76.1) above, with syāta (plural ending). Same stuff.


-----
So what we have here, is a Cittassa (citta-assa,) as the existential form of the Citta. The "existential" citta in satta.
This is shown particularly in the following extract:
With the origination of name-and-form there is the origination of (the existential) mind.
Nāmarūpasamudayā cittassa samudayo.
SN 47.42
We know that, in paṭiccasamuppāda, the first occurence of citta, is due to the origination of ignorance (vijjā); and that it happens in the Saṅkhāra nidanā - see here and also here (the definition of cittasaṅkhāra).
However, SN 47.42 above cited, tells us that the origination of name & form (nāmarūpa), is at the origin of cittassa.
If you read the sketch properly, you will notice that the descent of nāmarūpa in saḷāyatana "creates" a new khandha called cetanā. And this is the existential part of citta (the cittassa - the "becoming" citta). The part that is proper to satta.
It is important to notice that in the Agama (SA 298,) the khandhas in the nāmarūpa nidanā are different than the khandhas given in the Nikaya (SN 12.2). It is not a discrepancy between the two schools. They both see the khandhas in relation to their position in paṭiccasamuppāda. The Khandhas of the Nikaya are the khandhas that have "become" in satta. They are the existential khandhas of the sphere of senses (saḷāyatana).
To understand the descent of nāmarūpa in saḷāyatana, see here (establishing of consciousness).

Cittassa is the "Being" form, of the "Cosmic" (immaterial) Citta.
When one's Citta gets liberated, it is from the bound of this existential cittassa


Also, check this:
https://justpaste.it/rtcu

And this (relationship between citta & mano).
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 20#p435789
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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