Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Balancing family life and the Dhamma, in pursuit of a happy lay life.
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Stiphan
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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:15 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:37 am
Stiphan wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:23 am
I agree soul mates are for life...
But you called your 5-year-lady a "soul mate". Are you able to explain to me what false speech (musavada) is & what right speech is?
Stiphan wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:23 am
But no, I'll be a monk for life and I won't have craving for relationships once I'm in robes, I have it now only because I'm not a monk.
It makes no difference to me. If you can be a monk in the future, you can have a mind of a monk, today. Also, personally, I do not consider those who do not know what non-harming is & what harming is to be a "monk". A monk is dedicated to non-harming & teaching others non-harming.
Stiphan wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:23 am
What is my wrong intention for living the holy life??
For me, your intention towards the lady is not metta & not compassion & is selfishness. For me, this gives the impression of confusion.
Dhammapada 308.

It would be better to swallow a red-hot iron ball, blazing like fire, than as an immoral and uncontrolled monk to eat the alms of the people.

Nirayavagga: Hell https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .budd.html
To the contrary, I am especially concerned for her and her well being and am not looking for it for sexual reward. I love her, and as I said, if she doesn't want a relationship that would be fine. You seem very aggressive in your post.
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

The Path begins with the acknowledgement of Truth; it ends in Freedom; and in between is a huge amount of Effort.
Meanwhile, care about others.

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:19 am

I think if you're honest with your girlfriend, that's okay.

for the romantics, love never ends.

about sensual desire and being celibate I remembered this interview.
WIE: You've been practicing celibacy, as you said, for fifty-eight years. How has your experience of the practice changed or deepened over time?

BG: You know, at first it was very difficult, very difficult, especially when I was young, as a teenager and up until my late twenties. It was a real challenge. But because of the training that I received, I developed a sense of responsibility for my duties, my work, my commitment to the Dhamma and, moreover, respect for my teachers and parents. Teachers and parents, we love them very much, and we don't want to be disloyal to them, disrespectful to them. So that went on for many years until I really fully matured. And then I began to understand for myself the true meaning of celibacy.

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha097.htm
ok, just one more quote
Verse 186. Sensual Pleasures Never Satiated
Not by rain of golden coins
is found desires’ satiety,
desires are dukkha, of little joy,
thus a wise one understands.

Explanation: Insatiable are sensual desires. Sensual desires will not be satisfied even with a shower of gold. The wise knows that sensual pleasure bring but little satisfaction and much pain.

http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_buddha.htm
:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

DooDoot
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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:35 am

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:15 am
I love her... :heart:
In Buddhism, it appears metta is not related to sexual love or romantic feelings. Can we find a sutta where sexual feelings are connected to metta?
Let them not do the slightest thing
That the wise would later reprove.
Wishing: In gladness and in safety,
May all beings be at ease.

Karaniya Metta Sutta
:heart:
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:15 am
You seem very aggressive in your post.
Was the Buddha aggressive towards Rahula in MN 61?

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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:02 am

Stiphan wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:09 pm
Is it wrong or is it okay, and under what circumstances?
I think you need to have an honest conversation with her about it.

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Stiphan
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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:50 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:02 am
Stiphan wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:09 pm
Is it wrong or is it okay, and under what circumstances?
I think you need to have an honest conversation with her about it.
Yes, I already said that that's what I'm going to do.
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

The Path begins with the acknowledgement of Truth; it ends in Freedom; and in between is a huge amount of Effort.
Meanwhile, care about others.

DooDoot
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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:10 am

The term "sow your wild oats" came from the middle-age era in Europe, comparing pre-marital affairs to wastefully planting oats in the wild rather than on a fenced-in, well-plowed farm field. It is said that most young men do most of their hay rolling after their first serious relationship and before their second.

My question is: is it necessary to go out and engage in casual dating/sex with at least a few women before a man settles down with an LTR/wife? Some claim it is a right-of-passage to develop a mature libido that will genuinely crave and value a monogamous relationship. Others claim sowing your oats is destructive, deters a man from being capable of monogamy and will come back to haunt him later in life if/when he is monogamous with one woman (i.e. mid-life crisis?). Thoughts?

http://www.happierabroad.com/forum/view ... hp?t=15394
My question is: is it necessary to go out and engage in casual dating/sex with at least a few women before a man settles down in a monastic career?

Dinsdale
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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:49 am

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:50 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:02 am
Stiphan wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:09 pm
Is it wrong or is it okay, and under what circumstances?
I think you need to have an honest conversation with her about it.
Yes, I already said that that's what I'm going to do.
:thumbsup:
It sounds like a part of you would really like a long-term relationship, rather than going down the monastic route?

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Stiphan
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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:16 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:49 am
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:50 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:02 am


I think you need to have an honest conversation with her about it.
Yes, I already said that that's what I'm going to do.
:thumbsup:
It sounds like a part of you would really like a long-term relationship, rather than going down the monastic route?
That's just so not true. Have you read my posts? Monasticism is a certainty, while a relationship would be a bonus while I have the chance.
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

The Path begins with the acknowledgement of Truth; it ends in Freedom; and in between is a huge amount of Effort.
Meanwhile, care about others.

Dinsdale
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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:30 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:16 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:49 am
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:50 am


Yes, I already said that that's what I'm going to do.
:thumbsup:
It sounds like a part of you would really like a long-term relationship, rather than going down the monastic route?
That's just so not true. Have you read my posts? Monasticism is a certainty, while a relationship would be a bonus while I have the chance.
It depends what you mean by "relationship", though I think most people would assume at least the possibility of something long-term when entering into one.

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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:52 pm

If anyone should be heartbroken now, it should probably me. Yet I'm not.

I talked to her today and we talked and I said I loved her and asked if we could date. She was really nice - as always - but said it would be "inappropriate" because she'd been my nurse. The whole conversation was really cordial and when I said that that's okay and I wanted her to be happy and well she also said that she wanted me to be well and wished that I find a girlfriend. After some more courteous exchanges she had to go and when we parted she smiled in her magnificent way and waved me goodbye.

She hasn't said to me personally that she likes me or loves me but another nurse told me that she told him that she loved me. Every time I see her and she sees me, her whole body shivers with joy for a second or two in a way I can't explain, and I think it's because she really loves that I love her - she can feel it and sense it and she knows it's true, and she really likes it, but I don't think she feels the same amount of love, yet she is always really nice to me, asks me how I am and wishes me well with utter kindness.

In the end, right now, I just feel blessed to have known such a beautiful, happy, kind, virtuous, confident, assertive, intelligent young woman (she's also deputy manager in the ward), and I just wish her all the best and understand her point of view. It didn't feel like a rejection either, more like it was impossible because of her ethical reasons.

She's Rwandan, and I'll be donating to charities that help Rwandan children living in poverty.

May Ann be happy and well always and may she avoid all suffering. :heart:
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

The Path begins with the acknowledgement of Truth; it ends in Freedom; and in between is a huge amount of Effort.
Meanwhile, care about others.

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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by JohnK » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:07 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:52 pm
If anyone should be heartbroken now, it should probably me. Yet I'm not...
May Ann be happy and well always and may she avoid all suffering. :heart:
Seems like you did a fine job of engaging with honesty and care, congrats.
Be well. :anjali:
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:24 pm

JohnK wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:07 pm
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:52 pm
If anyone should be heartbroken now, it should probably me. Yet I'm not...
May Ann be happy and well always and may she avoid all suffering. :heart:
Seems like you did a fine job of engaging with honesty and care, congrats.
Be well. :anjali:
Thanks. :smile:
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

The Path begins with the acknowledgement of Truth; it ends in Freedom; and in between is a huge amount of Effort.
Meanwhile, care about others.

Digity
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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Digity » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:11 pm

I give you credit for putting yourself out there and asking her out. Yeah, the whole nurse thing makes matters awkward.

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Stiphan
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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:19 pm

Digity wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:11 pm
I give you credit for putting yourself out there and asking her out. Yeah, the whole nurse thing makes matters awkward.
I know. I asked my GP later today and she said it would be inappropriate indeed to date my nurse. Must be their rules maybe. Which is why Ann didn't shun me but was so kind in explaining she just can't do it.
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

The Path begins with the acknowledgement of Truth; it ends in Freedom; and in between is a huge amount of Effort.
Meanwhile, care about others.

Digity
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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Digity » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:27 am

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:19 pm
Digity wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:11 pm
I give you credit for putting yourself out there and asking her out. Yeah, the whole nurse thing makes matters awkward.
I know. I asked my GP later today and she said it would be inappropriate indeed to date my nurse. Must be their rules maybe. Which is why Ann didn't shun me but was so kind in explaining she just can't do it.
Yeah, I wouldn't feel too bad about this. I think it wouldn't have been a good idea for her to agree to a relationship. I think it would have looked bad on her to be dating a patient.

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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:57 am

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:19 pm
I know. I asked my GP later today and she said it would be inappropriate indeed to date my nurse. Must be their rules maybe.
Yes, they're pretty strict. These are the latest guidelines from the UK’s Professional Standards Authority, the first for patients and the second for hospital staff.

Clear sexual boundaries between healthcare professionals and patients —
Information for patients and carers


Clear sexual boundaries between healthcare professionals and patients —
Responsibilities of healthcare professionals

Sexual activity with former patients or their carers

Sexual relationships with any former patient, or the carer of a former patient, will often be inappropriate however long ago the professional relationship ended. This is because the sexual relationship may be influenced by the previous professional relationship, which will often have involved an imbalance of power as described above.

The possibility of a sexual relationship with a former patient may arise, for example through social contact. If a healthcare professional thinks that a relationship with a former patient might develop, he or she must seriously consider the possible future harm that could be caused and the potential impact on their own professional status. They must use their professional judgment and give careful consideration to the following:

* When the professional relationship ended and how long it lasted.
* The nature of the previous professional relationship and whether it involved a significant imbalance of power.
* Whether the former patient was particularly vulnerable at the time of the professional relationship, and whether they might still be considered vulnerable.
* Whether they would be exploiting any power imbalance, knowledge or influence obtained while they were the patient’s healthcare professional to develop or progress the relationship.
* Whether they are, or in future are likely to be, treating other members of the former patient's family.

If a healthcare professional is not sure whether they are – or could be seen to be – abusing their professional position, they should seek advice from an appropriate professional body.

However consensual a relationship appears to be, if a complaint is made the onus will always be on the healthcare professional to show that they have acted professionally by giving serious consideration to the points above in relation to the circumstances in question, and by seeking appropriate advice.

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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by binocular » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:09 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:10 am
My question is: is it necessary to go out and engage in casual dating/sex with at least a few women before a man settles down in a monastic career?
Exactly!
I know of a monk who ordained very young, but then in his early thirties figured it would be good to have a romantic relationship. He also thought it would help him become more mature. So he disrobed, got married, started worldly life. His marriage didn't even last a year, and within five years, he was back in the robes.

I think your question is very important and deserves special attention in a separate thread. (If you don't start it, I will.) I think it would fit the new subform about family life and relationships.

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:37 am
For me, your intention towards the lady is not metta & not compassion & is selfishness. For me, this gives the impression of confusion.
It also seems like a craving for status in society. In the sense that in our society, there is the idea that a person is mature, worthy, and most of all, normal if they have had a serious romantic relationship. There's even a classical song that says "You're nobody till somebody loves you".

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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:50 am

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:52 pm
In the end, right now, I just feel blessed to have known such a beautiful, happy, kind, virtuous, confident, assertive, intelligent young woman (she's also deputy manager in the ward), and I just wish her all the best and understand her point of view. It didn't feel like a rejection either, more like it was impossible because of her ethical reasons.
It's good that you had the conversation and clarified things.

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Stiphan
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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Stiphan » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:35 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:57 am
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:19 pm
I know. I asked my GP later today and she said it would be inappropriate indeed to date my nurse. Must be their rules maybe.
Yes, they're pretty strict. These are the latest guidelines from the UK’s Professional Standards Authority, the first for patients and the second for hospital staff.

[...]
Wow, thank you, Bhante. Strict rules indeed. It's unfortunate because we both like each other. Kudos to her, though, for keeping to her rules. It shows she is the virtuous human being I always knew she was.
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

The Path begins with the acknowledgement of Truth; it ends in Freedom; and in between is a huge amount of Effort.
Meanwhile, care about others.

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Re: Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?

Post by Crazy cloud » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:55 pm

Would it be wrong to enter a relationship knowing it will end?
I wouldnt say its wrong, but rather regard it as a bit unwholesome and that it will probably produce some unnecessary suffering

Best of luck :)
your name Mori means forest like the infinite fresh green distances of your blindness

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