the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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Caodemarte
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Re: The Fish and the Turtle (Is Nibbana Nothingness?)

Post by Caodemarte »

Lucas Oliveira wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:07 am The Fish and the Turtle (Is Nibbana Nothingness?)....
Great story!
boundless
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by boundless »

aflatun wrote: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:55 pm
aflatun wrote: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:23 pm
David N. Snyder wrote: Perhaps neither the classical Theravadins nor the suttanta Theravadins can be generalized to a specific view on nibbana. There is a wide range of views in all of them. I was familiar with Buddhaghosa not accepting the nihilist view, but I had thought most classical Theravadins today were of the atheist-death view for parinibbana (with rebirth up to that point).
With respect to the suttanta camp I would agree, its a wide playing field. But regarding the former I'm not so sure. I guess it depends on how we define classical! If we mean commentarial tradition up to and including Burmese Vipassana, then I'm not aware of any significant departure from Buddhaghosa's general understanding, but I'm happy to be corrected on this if anyone has historical sources that imply otherwise.

For me this view is sharply distinct from those of specifically "Buddhist nihilism" (because despite all aggregates ending Nibbana is an unconditioned ultimate reality) and suttanta style "Buddhist eternalism" (because all aggregates end which rules out sentience). But I would still classify it as a form of "Buddhist Eternalism"...

The only thing I'm aware of that smacks of "absolute death, nothing else" aside from a few modern monks is the Sautrantikas, and I don't know their literature well enough to confirm this. I wouldn't be surprised to find more sublety there, similar to Bhante Sujato.

And so as a hypothesis-which is subject to revision!-my current understanding is that aside from the (maybe) Sautrantikas, this is an entirely modern phenomenon.
Of course that doesn't make it wrong by default. But personally I have come to regard it as an aberration and an innovation.
David N. Snyder wrote:Buddhism, especially Theravada does seem to have an appeal to nihilists. Perhaps it is because nibbana gets mistaken as annihilation.
I believe you have nailed it, good sir :)
Just to add another piece of data in support of my hypothesis above, it appears Lance Cousins held a similar opinion regarding the uniqueness of the Sautrantika position, i.e. Nibbana without residue is non existence, a non implicative negation, the unconditioned is merely the absence of the conditioned, etc.
Lance Cousins wrote:It seems clear that although lists of unconditioned dharmas varied among the schools to some extent, they were all agreed that there were unconditioned dharmas were not the mere absence of the conditioned. Only the sautrantikas and allied groups disputed this last point. It seems clear that their position is a later development based upon a fresh look at the Sutra literature among groups which did not accord the status of authentic word of the Buddha to the abidharma literature.

...

To summarize the kind of evolution suggested here: We may say that the main force of the nikayas is to discount speculation about nibbana. It is the summum bonum. To seek to know more is to manufacture obstacles. Beyond this only a few passages go. No certain account of the ontological status of nibbana can be derived from the nikayas. It cannot even be shown with certainty that a single view was held. By the time of the early abidhamma the situation is much clearer. The whole Buddhist tradition is agreed that nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, neither temporal nor spatial, neither mind (in its usual form) nor matter, but certainly not the absence or mere cessation of other dhammas. The uniformity is certainly a strong argument for projecting this position into the nikayas and even for suggesting that it represents the true underlying position of the suttas.
Nibbāna and Abhidhamma
Hi,

to give further evidence for your hypothesis I found this section of the "Kathavatthu" (Abhidhamma) https://suttacentral.net/en/kv1.6:
Theravādin: If you assert that the material-aggregate retains its materiality, you must admit that the material-aggregate is permanent, persistent, eternal, not subject to change. You know that the opposite is true; hence it should not be said that materiality is retained.

Nibbāna does not abandon its state as Nibbāna—by this we mean Nibbāna is permanent, persistent, eternal, not subject to change. And you ought to mean this, too, in the case of material-aggregate, if you say that the latter does not abandon its materiality.
It seems that the view of the "permanent Nibbana" was well estabilished when (at least this part of) the Abhidhamma was written.

Of course there were many schools and hence many views and many opinions. Personally I think that the "non-existence" view is mistaken since it seems too reductionistic!

Regarding Nagarjuna personally I have a very hard time to understand him.

However I have a veryhard time to understand a lot of things but also it is true that:
[The Blessed One]: "This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise..." //www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn06
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by aflatun »

boundless wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:35 pm Hi,

to give further evidence for your hypothesis I found this section of the "Kathavatthu" (Abhidhamma) https://suttacentral.net/en/kv1.6:
Theravādin: If you assert that the material-aggregate retains its materiality, you must admit that the material-aggregate is permanent, persistent, eternal, not subject to change. You know that the opposite is true; hence it should not be said that materiality is retained.

Nibbāna does not abandon its state as Nibbāna—by this we mean Nibbāna is permanent, persistent, eternal, not subject to change. And you ought to mean this, too, in the case of material-aggregate, if you say that the latter does not abandon its materiality.
It seems that the view of the "permanent Nibbana" was well estabilished when (at least this part of) the Abhidhamma was written.

Of course there were many schools and hence many views and many opinions. Personally I think that the "non-existence" view is mistaken since it seems too reductionistic!

Regarding Nagarjuna personally I have a very hard time to understand him.

However I have a veryhard time to understand a lot of things but also it is true that:
[The Blessed One]: "This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise..." //www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn06
Welcome boundless, and thank you for sharing the great find! :thumbsup:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

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MMK XXII.15-16
DCM
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Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DCM »

Here is an excerpt from a discussion between B. Bodhi and A. Wallace, titled ‘What Happens to an Arahant at Death?’.
http://www.sbinstitute.com/sites/defaul ... evised.pdf

Bodhi is here commenting on ‘Some modern interpreters—including a number of prominent Western bhikkhus’.
BB: This isn’t my position, but their position. They would say that annihilationism is the doctrine that there is a substantial self that perishes at death, but with “right view” one sees that it is only the procession of self-less aggregates that ceases and beyond this there is nothing. For them, nibbāna is total extinction. It seems to me that on this position, what happens to the arahant at the time of death is exactly what happens to every living being at the time of death from the perspective of philosophical materialism. The only difference would be that the Buddhist posits rebirth for those who are non-arahants while the materialist posits “final nibbāna” for everyone.

This is something that has been bothering me for a while. If Nibbana is the cessation of everything, then what’s the result of the spiritual quest? Existence?

I’m insterested to hear from people who hold this view in bold, and unless your an Ariya and have experienced Nibbana, are you taking what’s said in the Nikayas on faith alone?

A philosophical materialist would say there is no difference between what happens at an Arahants death and what happens to every other living being at death. Annihilism.

Hopefully this won’t turn into ‘Bodhi is now Mahayana’, etc and I am not interested in that.
Last edited by DCM on Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

The Fish and the Turtle (Is Nibbana Nothingness?)

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=31162



:anjali:
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by User1249x »

DCM wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:53 pmand unless your an Ariya and have experienced Nibbana, are you taking what’s said in the Nikayas on faith alone?
Imho, You should be careful because i imagine a lot of people will adhere to doctrines of Nibbana in the here and now or similar and will claim Ariyahood on that ground along with Complete Annihilation of the system for Parinibbana.
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by cappuccino »

DCM wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:53 pmThis is something that has been bothering me for a while. If Nibbana is the cessation of everything, then what’s the aim of the spiritual quest? Nothingness?

Nothingness is a jhana, a realm of existence, not Nirvana.

Annihilation is nothing, not Nirvana.
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by User1249x »

At
the same time, unless my memory misleads me, there is a statement in the Pāli canon in which
the Buddha states that without nibbāna there would be no saṃsāra. Can you identify that
statement for me? Some might interpret that as implying that nibbāna does indeed have a
cosmological function, though it does not give rise to a creator God.

BB: I don’t recall any such statement in the Pali Canon, and it would be inconsistent with
everything else that is said there.
i can recall one
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"'All phenomena are rooted in desire.[1]

"'All phenomena come into play through attention.

"'All phenomena have contact as their origination.

"'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.

"'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.

"'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.

"'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.

"'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.

"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
It is very awesome what the Tathagata did there but it is hard to understand for people not trained in general semantics.
Last edited by User1249x on Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by cappuccino »

BAW: there is a statement in the Pāli canon in which the Buddha states that without nibbāna there would be no saṃsāra.

BB: I don’t recall any such statement in the Pali Canon, and it would be inconsistent with everything else that is said there. Perhaps you are thinking of the well known passage in the Udāna §73, which says that “if there were no unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, no release from what is born, come to be, made, and conditioned would be discerned here, but because there is an unborn (etc.) a release from what is born (etc.) is discerned here
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by User1249x »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:24 pm
Your point?
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by cappuccino »

there is an unborn

a release from what is born
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by User1249x »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:30 pm there is an unborn

a release from what is born
Actually nevermind im too tired to do this and dont really care that much .

I thought u were commenting on what i wrote in regards to Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi's seemingly assumed position of ;

"There are no passages which state that without nibbāna there would be no saṃsāra and that such a statement would be inconsistent with
everything else that is said in the Pali Canon."

A position i challenged with Mula Sutta.
"'All phenomena are rooted in desire.[1]

"'All phenomena come into play through attention.

"'All phenomena have contact as their origination.

"'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place.

"'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state.

"'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle.

"'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state.

"'All phenomena have release as their heartwood.

"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
Last edited by User1249x on Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by User1249x »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:30 pm there is an unborn

a release from what is born
Anyway if u care i was gonna ask you what exactly you mean by IS to see if you would go on to say that Unborn exists in either one of the spheres of existence and if not on what grounds you say that it IS.
Then i would re-evaluate and/or make a statement.

I am not going to tho, it is late, i am tired, i was not even supposed to be posting here.

It is good training but quite taxing.

If you want we can continue tomorrow in Classical Theravada Sub, ie this thread or a new one;
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=31296

not here because i made resolution to abstain from posting in random threads to avoid conflict.
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Re: Nibbana and nihilism

Post by DooDoot »

User1249x wrote: Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:34 pm"'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless.
This is obviously a mistranslation (i.e., wrong view) because a phenomena such as craving obviously does not gain a footing in the deathless. Since the Deathless is defined as the destruction of lust, hatred & delusion, how can the phenomena of lust, hatred & delusion gain a footing in the Deathless?
The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless.

https://suttacentral.net/en/sn45.7
I suggest to search the suttas for the phrase "footing in the deathless" & I imagine the only teachings that will be found are about 'skilful dhammas'.
Sariputta, do you take it on conviction that the faculty of conviction, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation?

Monks, these seven perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the Deathless, have the Deathless as their final end. Which seven? The perception of the unattractive, the perception of death, the perception of loathsomeness in food, the perception of distaste for every....

Monks, these nine perceptions, when developed & pursued, are of great fruit, of great benefit. They gain a footing in the deathless and have the deathless as their final end. Which nine? "The perception of unattractiveness (of the body), the perception of death, the perception of the foulness in food, the perception of ...

Monks, mindfulness of death — when developed & pursued — is of great fruit & great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end. And how is mindfulness of death ...

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/search_ ... &sa=Search
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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