Heavenly Pleasure

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:38 am
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:32 am
Pondera wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:30 am
And that puts a nail in the coffin of so called “hard” jhana preachers...
It doesn't. When the mind emerges from jhana, it remains blissful or heavenly to merely a slightly lesser degree. :smile:
Personal experience or unsupported conjecture. I haven’t personally seen such a sentiment written anywhere in the suttas (and Lord knows I must have read 20 % of them).

Furthermore, there is every indication that the Samādhi produced by the rupa jhanas leads to right view with regard to the skhandas. And there is nothing to support the idea that one cannot practice discernment while in jhana. The purpose of jhana is to attain Samādhi. The purpose of Samādhi is to “truly know and see things as they really are.”
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
This “there” pertains to the absorption itself. This “there” refers (among the other skhandas) to perception. So to assert that one does not perceive while in rupa jhana is to assert that they can not go forward with right view on the basis of concentration.

I know what you’re going to say. You’re going to say that the practitioner emerges from jhana and then goes about vipasanna.

To this is say, over and over again, the state of jhana says that “he regards whatever phenomenon there” ... as a dart, a cancer, an emptiness, etcetera.

Apart from all that, this sutta we’ve been arguing about specifically says “when I am in that state” ... my walking is celestial, and so forth.

Please don’t tell me that this sutta is not to be taken literally!
I think u r a blind believer of Buddhism with no investigation faculty switched on. Jhana is one pointedness ..so thing analytical stuff can’t be done inside jhana.
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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confusedlayman
Posts: 1415
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:23 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:13 pm
Pondera wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:14 pm
@ confusedlayman

Yeah, no. Try reading the sutta reference again.



Your stubborn view of jhana does not coincide with the words of the Buddha. Find a new definition of jhana, please. And stop misrepresenting the suttas.
There is no 5 sense exp in jhana because 5 sense exp is hiderance. 3rd jhana no gross body perception and 4th too. In one pointed concentration u can’t walk or go toilet or run or ride a aeroplane. The above sutta is not to be taken literally.
I’m sorry. I can’t just let this go with a sarcastic remark on my behalf. You’re terribly wrong and you’re a horrible influence on anyone new to Buddhism.

5 sense exp is a hinderance? Wrong.
Sensual desire (kamacchanda),
Ill-will (byapada),
Sloth and torpor (thina-middha),
Restlessness and remorse (uddhacca-kukkucca),
Sceptical doubt (vicikiccha).
Sensual desire is a hinderance - not perception. So, you are quite literally wrong in this regard.

Third jhana? No gross body perception? Wrong.
"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.
See that? “With the body”? Should I take this literally or not? If I do, you’re utterly wrong again. How should I take this?

And last but certainly not least “this sutta shouldn’t be taken literally”? What the actual phuck?

Where the hell do you get the authority to say that a straight forward sutta like the one in question shouldn’t be taken literally?

I mean, I completely understand that you can’t come to terms with the actual teachings of Buddhism ... I understand that in order for you to keep your screwed up views you have to say that ...

But since you’re already digging your own grave, answer me this. What is it about that sutta that isn’t literal?
The above five hinderance has sense base as basis. Sensual desire comes from mind thinking xx or want to hear rock music for example. U use then ear or body parts ... thinking is energy drain.. thinking comes when ur 5 sense and thinking mind are activated so u need to stop input by closing eyes and not moving body and focus attention on breath so hearing and thinking comes to still... ur awareness focus on breath or other object in one pointed way. I think u hav no exp with basic meditation or else u won’t be believing and misrepresenting buddhas word by taking his analogy/speech literally. I urge u to think and investigate the teaching even Buddha appears before u and give u Dhamma talk. Pls don’t listen to Mara. I request u to cross question even the sutta and test it for urself. If u take some teaching literally, then u should be hiking mount meru at this moment.
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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Pondera
Posts: 1365
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:25 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:38 am
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:32 am

It doesn't. When the mind emerges from jhana, it remains blissful or heavenly to merely a slightly lesser degree. :smile:
Personal experience or unsupported conjecture. I haven’t personally seen such a sentiment written anywhere in the suttas (and Lord knows I must have read 20 % of them).

Furthermore, there is every indication that the Samādhi produced by the rupa jhanas leads to right view with regard to the skhandas. And there is nothing to support the idea that one cannot practice discernment while in jhana. The purpose of jhana is to attain Samādhi. The purpose of Samādhi is to “truly know and see things as they really are.”
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
This “there” pertains to the absorption itself. This “there” refers (among the other skhandas) to perception. So to assert that one does not perceive while in rupa jhana is to assert that they can not go forward with right view on the basis of concentration.

I know what you’re going to say. You’re going to say that the practitioner emerges from jhana and then goes about vipasanna.

To this is say, over and over again, the state of jhana says that “he regards whatever phenomenon there” ... as a dart, a cancer, an emptiness, etcetera.

Apart from all that, this sutta we’ve been arguing about specifically says “when I am in that state” ... my walking is celestial, and so forth.

Please don’t tell me that this sutta is not to be taken literally!
I think u r a blind believer of Buddhism with no investigation faculty switched on. Jhana is one pointedness ..so thing analytical stuff can’t be done inside jhana.
Blind believer? Your subtle insults aren’t necessary. I simply don’t dismiss a sutta if it contradicts my opinions. The suttas are unusual in that there are very few internal contradictions in them. I take them literally, yes.

Never mind that. What’s the purpose of “one pointedness”? Obviously you have attained it. So what is the purpose of it?

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Pondera
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Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:36 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:23 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:13 pm


There is no 5 sense exp in jhana because 5 sense exp is hiderance. 3rd jhana no gross body perception and 4th too. In one pointed concentration u can’t walk or go toilet or run or ride a aeroplane. The above sutta is not to be taken literally.
I’m sorry. I can’t just let this go with a sarcastic remark on my behalf. You’re terribly wrong and you’re a horrible influence on anyone new to Buddhism.

5 sense exp is a hinderance? Wrong.
Sensual desire (kamacchanda),
Ill-will (byapada),
Sloth and torpor (thina-middha),
Restlessness and remorse (uddhacca-kukkucca),
Sceptical doubt (vicikiccha).
Sensual desire is a hinderance - not perception. So, you are quite literally wrong in this regard.

Third jhana? No gross body perception? Wrong.
"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.
See that? “With the body”? Should I take this literally or not? If I do, you’re utterly wrong again. How should I take this?

And last but certainly not least “this sutta shouldn’t be taken literally”? What the actual phuck?

Where the hell do you get the authority to say that a straight forward sutta like the one in question shouldn’t be taken literally?

I mean, I completely understand that you can’t come to terms with the actual teachings of Buddhism ... I understand that in order for you to keep your screwed up views you have to say that ...

But since you’re already digging your own grave, answer me this. What is it about that sutta that isn’t literal?
The above five hinderance has sense base as basis. Sensual desire comes from mind thinking xx or want to hear rock music for example. U use then ear or body parts ... thinking is energy drain.. thinking comes when ur 5 sense and thinking mind are activated so u need to stop input by closing eyes and not moving body and focus attention on breath so hearing and thinking comes to still... ur awareness focus on breath or other object in one pointed way.
Hilarious. You think that one pointed concentration is the result of dimming your senses. The suttas clearly state that the “vital condition for Samādhi is Sukkah”. You achieve Samādhi by developing bliss.

Whatever you’re doing in your meditation .... it’s not Buddhism. Ignoring or dimming your senses to a achieve Samādhi is not Buddhism.
I think u hav no exp with basic meditation or else u won’t be believing and misrepresenting buddhas word by taking his analogy/speech literally. I urge u to think and investigate the teaching even Buddha appears before u and give u Dhamma talk. Pls don’t listen to Mara. I request u to cross question even the sutta and test it for urself. If u take some teaching literally, then u should be hiking mount meru at this moment.
I can tell you two things. One - The suttas specifically point out Sukkah as the vital condition for Samādhi (look up “Vital Conditions Suttacentral). Two - it is precisely because I have developed heavenly bliss that I am both able to develop Samādhi and reference suttas which support and coincide with my meditative experience.

So, a) you incorrectly assert that “calmed senses” lead to Samādhi - when in fact the suttas say specifically that “joy leads to rapture. Rapture to tranquility. Tranquility to Samādhi”.

And b) you have no idea what the extent of my meditative experience is.

So keep on listening to your breath. Of course, ignore the literal instructions of anapanasati - and of course keep counting; keep focusing on your nostrils; and calm those sense faculties down in a nice quiet room where one pointed focus will arise.

Questions for the imposter. What is rapture and how is it developed? What is sukkha and how is it developed and does it lead to one pointedness? And if so how?

Chew on that for a while.

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confusedlayman
Posts: 1415
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:53 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:25 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:38 am


Personal experience or unsupported conjecture. I haven’t personally seen such a sentiment written anywhere in the suttas (and Lord knows I must have read 20 % of them).

Furthermore, there is every indication that the Samādhi produced by the rupa jhanas leads to right view with regard to the skhandas. And there is nothing to support the idea that one cannot practice discernment while in jhana. The purpose of jhana is to attain Samādhi. The purpose of Samādhi is to “truly know and see things as they really are.”



This “there” pertains to the absorption itself. This “there” refers (among the other skhandas) to perception. So to assert that one does not perceive while in rupa jhana is to assert that they can not go forward with right view on the basis of concentration.

I know what you’re going to say. You’re going to say that the practitioner emerges from jhana and then goes about vipasanna.

To this is say, over and over again, the state of jhana says that “he regards whatever phenomenon there” ... as a dart, a cancer, an emptiness, etcetera.

Apart from all that, this sutta we’ve been arguing about specifically says “when I am in that state” ... my walking is celestial, and so forth.

Please don’t tell me that this sutta is not to be taken literally!
I think u r a blind believer of Buddhism with no investigation faculty switched on. Jhana is one pointedness ..so thing analytical stuff can’t be done inside jhana.
Blind believer? Your subtle insults aren’t necessary. I simply don’t dismiss a sutta if it contradicts my opinions. The suttas are unusual in that there are very few internal contradictions in them. I take them literally, yes.

Never mind that. What’s the purpose of “one pointedness”? Obviously you have attained it. So what is the purpose of it?
One pointed concentration is to concentrate on something so mind is not distracted or scattered. It aids in meditation
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 1415
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:04 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:36 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:23 am


I’m sorry. I can’t just let this go with a sarcastic remark on my behalf. You’re terribly wrong and you’re a horrible influence on anyone new to Buddhism.

5 sense exp is a hinderance? Wrong.



Sensual desire is a hinderance - not perception. So, you are quite literally wrong in this regard.

Third jhana? No gross body perception? Wrong.



See that? “With the body”? Should I take this literally or not? If I do, you’re utterly wrong again. How should I take this?

And last but certainly not least “this sutta shouldn’t be taken literally”? What the actual phuck?

Where the hell do you get the authority to say that a straight forward sutta like the one in question shouldn’t be taken literally?

I mean, I completely understand that you can’t come to terms with the actual teachings of Buddhism ... I understand that in order for you to keep your screwed up views you have to say that ...

But since you’re already digging your own grave, answer me this. What is it about that sutta that isn’t literal?
The above five hinderance has sense base as basis. Sensual desire comes from mind thinking xx or want to hear rock music for example. U use then ear or body parts ... thinking is energy drain.. thinking comes when ur 5 sense and thinking mind are activated so u need to stop input by closing eyes and not moving body and focus attention on breath so hearing and thinking comes to still... ur awareness focus on breath or other object in one pointed way.
Hilarious. You think that one pointed concentration is the result of dimming your senses. The suttas clearly state that the “vital condition for Samādhi is Sukkah”. You achieve Samādhi by developing bliss.

Whatever you’re doing in your meditation .... it’s not Buddhism. Ignoring or dimming your senses to a achieve Samādhi is not Buddhism.
I think u hav no exp with basic meditation or else u won’t be believing and misrepresenting buddhas word by taking his analogy/speech literally. I urge u to think and investigate the teaching even Buddha appears before u and give u Dhamma talk. Pls don’t listen to Mara. I request u to cross question even the sutta and test it for urself. If u take some teaching literally, then u should be hiking mount meru at this moment.
I can tell you two things. One - The suttas specifically point out Sukkah as the vital condition for Samādhi (look up “Vital Conditions Suttacentral). Two - it is precisely because I have developed heavenly bliss that I am both able to develop Samādhi and reference suttas which support and coincide with my meditative experience.

So, a) you incorrectly assert that “calmed senses” lead to Samādhi - when in fact the suttas say specifically that “joy leads to rapture. Rapture to tranquility. Tranquility to Samādhi”.

And b) you have no idea what the extent of my meditative experience is.

So keep on listening to your breath. Of course, ignore the literal instructions of anapanasati - and of course keep counting; keep focusing on your nostrils; and calm those sense faculties down in a nice quiet room where one pointed focus will arise.

Questions for the imposter. What is rapture and how is it developed? What is sukkha and how is it developed and does it lead to one pointedness? And if so how?

Chew on that for a while.
Heavenly pleasure include Metta and Brahma vihara. With that pleasure it’s possible to roam around but if u talking about jhana bliss they u can’t walk or swim. There are many heavenly pleasure and Some pleasure are mundane but looks heavenly in ur view I don’t know what attainment u saying. Maybe u can eloborate on ur heavenly pleasure so I understand it in detail.
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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confusedlayman
Posts: 1415
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by confusedlayman »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:12 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:04 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:36 am

The above five hinderance has sense base as basis. Sensual desire comes from mind thinking xx or want to hear rock music for example. U use then ear or body parts ... thinking is energy drain.. thinking comes when ur 5 sense and thinking mind are activated so u need to stop input by closing eyes and not moving body and focus attention on breath so hearing and thinking comes to still... ur awareness focus on breath or other object in one pointed way.
Hilarious. You think that one pointed concentration is the result of dimming your senses. The suttas clearly state that the “vital condition for Samādhi is Sukkah”. You achieve Samādhi by developing bliss.

Whatever you’re doing in your meditation .... it’s not Buddhism. Ignoring or dimming your senses to a achieve Samādhi is not Buddhism.
I think u hav no exp with basic meditation or else u won’t be believing and misrepresenting buddhas word by taking his analogy/speech literally. I urge u to think and investigate the teaching even Buddha appears before u and give u Dhamma talk. Pls don’t listen to Mara. I request u to cross question even the sutta and test it for urself. If u take some teaching literally, then u should be hiking mount meru at this moment.
I can tell you two things. One - The suttas specifically point out Sukkah as the vital condition for Samādhi (look up “Vital Conditions Suttacentral). Two - it is precisely because I have developed heavenly bliss that I am both able to develop Samādhi and reference suttas which support and coincide with my meditative experience.

So, a) you incorrectly assert that “calmed senses” lead to Samādhi - when in fact the suttas say specifically that “joy leads to rapture. Rapture to tranquility. Tranquility to Samādhi”.

And b) you have no idea what the extent of my meditative experience is.

So keep on listening to your breath. Of course, ignore the literal instructions of anapanasati - and of course keep counting; keep focusing on your nostrils; and calm those sense faculties down in a nice quiet room where one pointed focus will arise.

Questions for the imposter. What is rapture and how is it developed? What is sukkha and how is it developed and does it lead to one pointedness? And if so how?

Chew on that for a while.
Heavenly pleasure include Metta and Brahma vihara. With that pleasure it’s possible to roam around but if u talking about jhana bliss they u can’t walk or swim. There are many heavenly pleasure and Some pleasure are mundane but looks heavenly in ur view I don’t know what attainment u saying. Maybe u can eloborate on ur heavenly pleasure so I understand it in detail.
Rapture comes from many causes and condition. Thinking of heavenly beings , thinking of virtues, thinking of abondment of defilements, thinking of buddhas and sangha quality, thinking of good will or metta feeling and many cause rapture and sukkah is happiness or contentment which is fine refined version of rapture. Rapture is heavy while Sukka is mental bliss acc to me. If u already had rapture u can develop rapture thinking of it again. In jhana rapture is developed while 5 hinderance are decreased and finally gone. They both don’t go hand in hand. Can I ask u how rapture is formed in first place?
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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Pondera
Posts: 1365
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:09 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:53 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:25 am


I think u r a blind believer of Buddhism with no investigation faculty switched on. Jhana is one pointedness ..so thing analytical stuff can’t be done inside jhana.
Blind believer? Your subtle insults aren’t necessary. I simply don’t dismiss a sutta if it contradicts my opinions. The suttas are unusual in that there are very few internal contradictions in them. I take them literally, yes.

Never mind that. What’s the purpose of “one pointedness”? Obviously you have attained it. So what is the purpose of it?
One pointed concentration is to concentrate on something so mind is not distracted or scattered. It aids in meditation
Scattered by thoughts? Is that what you mean?

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Pondera
Posts: 1365
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:12 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:04 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:36 am

The above five hinderance has sense base as basis. Sensual desire comes from mind thinking xx or want to hear rock music for example. U use then ear or body parts ... thinking is energy drain.. thinking comes when ur 5 sense and thinking mind are activated so u need to stop input by closing eyes and not moving body and focus attention on breath so hearing and thinking comes to still... ur awareness focus on breath or other object in one pointed way.
Hilarious. You think that one pointed concentration is the result of dimming your senses. The suttas clearly state that the “vital condition for Samādhi is Sukkah”. You achieve Samādhi by developing bliss.

Whatever you’re doing in your meditation .... it’s not Buddhism. Ignoring or dimming your senses to a achieve Samādhi is not Buddhism.
I think u hav no exp with basic meditation or else u won’t be believing and misrepresenting buddhas word by taking his analogy/speech literally. I urge u to think and investigate the teaching even Buddha appears before u and give u Dhamma talk. Pls don’t listen to Mara. I request u to cross question even the sutta and test it for urself. If u take some teaching literally, then u should be hiking mount meru at this moment.
I can tell you two things. One - The suttas specifically point out Sukkah as the vital condition for Samādhi (look up “Vital Conditions Suttacentral). Two - it is precisely because I have developed heavenly bliss that I am both able to develop Samādhi and reference suttas which support and coincide with my meditative experience.

So, a) you incorrectly assert that “calmed senses” lead to Samādhi - when in fact the suttas say specifically that “joy leads to rapture. Rapture to tranquility. Tranquility to Samādhi”.

And b) you have no idea what the extent of my meditative experience is.

So keep on listening to your breath. Of course, ignore the literal instructions of anapanasati - and of course keep counting; keep focusing on your nostrils; and calm those sense faculties down in a nice quiet room where one pointed focus will arise.

Questions for the imposter. What is rapture and how is it developed? What is sukkha and how is it developed and does it lead to one pointedness? And if so how?

Chew on that for a while.
Heavenly pleasure include Metta and Brahma vihara. With that pleasure it’s possible to roam around but if u talking about jhana bliss they u can’t walk or swim. There are many heavenly pleasure and Some pleasure are mundane but looks heavenly in ur view I don’t know what attainment u saying. Maybe u can eloborate on ur heavenly pleasure so I understand it in detail.
Jhanic pleasure (jhana sukkah) is also heavenly. The suttas state that one who develops rupa jhana is destined for heaven.

I am simply talking about the pleasure that is developed in jhana. It is heavenly because it is not worldly. There is nothing in the world to compare to that which touches the body like the pleasure attained on the basis of rapture and tranquility.

You have obviously attained jhanic pleasure; so tell me - how does it lead to one pointedness?

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Pondera
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Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:23 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:12 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:04 am


Hilarious. You think that one pointed concentration is the result of dimming your senses. The suttas clearly state that the “vital condition for Samādhi is Sukkah”. You achieve Samādhi by developing bliss.

Whatever you’re doing in your meditation .... it’s not Buddhism. Ignoring or dimming your senses to a achieve Samādhi is not Buddhism.



I can tell you two things. One - The suttas specifically point out Sukkah as the vital condition for Samādhi (look up “Vital Conditions Suttacentral). Two - it is precisely because I have developed heavenly bliss that I am both able to develop Samādhi and reference suttas which support and coincide with my meditative experience.

So, a) you incorrectly assert that “calmed senses” lead to Samādhi - when in fact the suttas say specifically that “joy leads to rapture. Rapture to tranquility. Tranquility to Samādhi”.

And b) you have no idea what the extent of my meditative experience is.

So keep on listening to your breath. Of course, ignore the literal instructions of anapanasati - and of course keep counting; keep focusing on your nostrils; and calm those sense faculties down in a nice quiet room where one pointed focus will arise.

Questions for the imposter. What is rapture and how is it developed? What is sukkha and how is it developed and does it lead to one pointedness? And if so how?

Chew on that for a while.
Heavenly pleasure include Metta and Brahma vihara. With that pleasure it’s possible to roam around but if u talking about jhana bliss they u can’t walk or swim. There are many heavenly pleasure and Some pleasure are mundane but looks heavenly in ur view I don’t know what attainment u saying. Maybe u can eloborate on ur heavenly pleasure so I understand it in detail.
Rapture comes from many causes and condition. Thinking of heavenly beings , thinking of virtues, thinking of abondment of defilements, thinking of buddhas and sangha quality, thinking of good will or metta feeling and many cause rapture and sukkah is happiness or contentment which is fine refined version of rapture. Rapture is heavy while Sukka is mental bliss acc to me. If u already had rapture u can develop rapture thinking of it again. In jhana rapture is developed while 5 hinderance are decreased and finally gone. They both don’t go hand in hand. Can I ask u how rapture is formed in first place?
To answer your question - Via the nervous system. Bodily rapture (and jhanic rapture) are examples of stress leaving the complicated far reaches of the nervous system. Letting go is the cause.

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Wizard in the Forest
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Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

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Pondera
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Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:40 am
Enjoy. Here is your Sutta.
That was enjoyable. Thank you.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:33 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:23 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:12 am


Heavenly pleasure include Metta and Brahma vihara. With that pleasure it’s possible to roam around but if u talking about jhana bliss they u can’t walk or swim. There are many heavenly pleasure and Some pleasure are mundane but looks heavenly in ur view I don’t know what attainment u saying. Maybe u can eloborate on ur heavenly pleasure so I understand it in detail.
Rapture comes from many causes and condition. Thinking of heavenly beings , thinking of virtues, thinking of abondment of defilements, thinking of buddhas and sangha quality, thinking of good will or metta feeling and many cause rapture and sukkah is happiness or contentment which is fine refined version of rapture. Rapture is heavy while Sukka is mental bliss acc to me. If u already had rapture u can develop rapture thinking of it again. In jhana rapture is developed while 5 hinderance are decreased and finally gone. They both don’t go hand in hand. Can I ask u how rapture is formed in first place?
To answer your question - Via the nervous system. Bodily rapture (and jhanic rapture) are examples of stress leaving the complicated far reaches of the nervous system. Letting go is the cause.
I can let go of stress and don’t feel rapture instead feel equanimity which means letting go isn’t the only cause but u need to think of something that cause rapture like thinking of benefit of Dhamma etc
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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Pondera
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Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:07 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:33 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:23 am


Rapture comes from many causes and condition. Thinking of heavenly beings , thinking of virtues, thinking of abondment of defilements, thinking of buddhas and sangha quality, thinking of good will or metta feeling and many cause rapture and sukkah is happiness or contentment which is fine refined version of rapture. Rapture is heavy while Sukka is mental bliss acc to me. If u already had rapture u can develop rapture thinking of it again. In jhana rapture is developed while 5 hinderance are decreased and finally gone. They both don’t go hand in hand. Can I ask u how rapture is formed in first place?
To answer your question - Via the nervous system. Bodily rapture (and jhanic rapture) are examples of stress leaving the complicated far reaches of the nervous system. Letting go is the cause.
I can let go of stress and don’t feel rapture instead feel equanimity which means letting go isn’t the only cause but u need to think of something that cause rapture like thinking of benefit of Dhamma etc
True. I should also mention that I use the red kasina; the blue; the yellow; and the white. I use the earth kasina; the water; the fire; and the wind kasina.

Not in Buddhaghosa’s sense where you build a circle out of red clay (or what have you) and stare at it until the image is burned on your retinas.

I use kasina; in the sense that it is “unbounded; unlimited; ranging in all directions; internal and external”.

I draw inspiration from “The Greater Exhortation to Rahula”.
"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property?}[3] Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the earth property fade from the mind.
"Rahula, develop the meditation in tune with earth. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when people throw what is clean or unclean on the earth — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — the earth is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.
Letting go is the cause of rapture. Ie. the fading of certain kasinas from the mind. The same is true for bliss. Letting go is the cause.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:57 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:07 am
Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:33 am


To answer your question - Via the nervous system. Bodily rapture (and jhanic rapture) are examples of stress leaving the complicated far reaches of the nervous system. Letting go is the cause.
I can let go of stress and don’t feel rapture instead feel equanimity which means letting go isn’t the only cause but u need to think of something that cause rapture like thinking of benefit of Dhamma etc
True. I should also mention that I use the red kasina; the blue; the yellow; and the white. I use the earth kasina; the water; the fire; and the wind kasina.

Not in Buddhaghosa’s sense where you build a circle out of red clay (or what have you) and stare at it until the image is burned on your retinas.

I use kasina; in the sense that it is “unbounded; unlimited; ranging in all directions; internal and external”.

I draw inspiration from “The Greater Exhortation to Rahula”.
"And what is the earth property? The earth property can be either internal or external. What is the internal earth property?}[3] Anything internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, & sustained [by craving]: head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, or anything else internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, and sustained: This is called the internal earth property. Now both the internal earth property & the external earth property are simply earth property. And that should be seen as it actually is present with right discernment: 'This is not mine, this is not me, this is not my self.' When one sees it thus as it actually is present with right discernment, one becomes disenchanted with the earth property and makes the earth property fade from the mind.
"Rahula, develop the meditation in tune with earth. For when you are developing the meditation in tune with earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind. Just as when people throw what is clean or unclean on the earth — feces, urine, saliva, pus, or blood — the earth is not horrified, humiliated, or disgusted by it; in the same way, when you are developing the meditation in tune with earth, agreeable & disagreeable sensory impressions that have arisen will not stay in charge of your mind.
Letting go is the cause of rapture. Ie. the fading of certain kasinas from the mind. The same is true for bliss. Letting go is the cause.
What u saying is true. But It also leads to equanimity which in this case rapture should be induced
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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