Heavenly Pleasure

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 1365
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

I’ve heard it said that the Buddha described jhanic sukkah as “heavenly” pleasure.

Could anyone help me find a sutta which supports this comparison?

Thank you,

Pondera

User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Location: Bear Republic

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Polar Bear »

This is pretty suggestive:
“But, Master Gotama, what is the celestial high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?”
“Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination. With the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. With the fading away as well of rapture, I dwell equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, I experience pleasure with the body; I enter and dwell in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.
“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”
“It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a celestial high and luxurious bed?

https://suttacentral.net/an3.63/en/bodhi

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 1365
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

Hmm. Thank you very much.

User avatar
Lucas Oliveira
Posts: 1047
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

Verse 200. Happily They Live - Undefiled

We for whom there’s nought
live indeed so happily,
joy-stained we’ll be
like resplendent gods.

Image

Explanation: Happily we live, who have no property to worry about. Feeding on joy we live like deities of the Heaven of radiance.

http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_happy.htm

:anjali:

the Portuguese translation is a little different

Happy we remain
owning nothing.
Feeding us with ecstasy
equal to the Abhassara devas.

Dhp 200

[Note 3 - Verse 200] pitibhakkha: feeding on piti or ecstasy. Piti is one of the mental qualities present in the concentration of access and in the first and second jhanas. The Abhassara devas correspond to the second jhana. [Returns]

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/dhp/dhp15.php

:namaste:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. http://translate.google.com.br

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 1415
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by confusedlayman »

Polar Bear wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:07 am
This is pretty suggestive:
“But, Master Gotama, what is the celestial high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?”
“Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination. With the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. With the fading away as well of rapture, I dwell equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, I experience pleasure with the body; I enter and dwell in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.
“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”
“It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a celestial high and luxurious bed?

https://suttacentral.net/an3.63/en/bodhi

:anjali:
How can monk gotama walk during jhana? Isn’t the body immobilised?
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1309
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Location: Bear Republic

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Polar Bear »

confusedlayman wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:17 am


How can monk gotama walk during jhana? Isn’t the body immobilised?
Jhāna is a matter of irresolvable and never ending debate. Perhaps the Buddha on emerging from jhāna, got up from his seat and walked around still experiencing stillness/tranquility, bliss and/or equanimity, but at a non-jhānic level that allows for moving around. It doesn’t really matter the label anyway, I think we just have to try to overcome the five hindrances and let peace and well-being deepen as much as they will whatever we’re doing. But I think it’s fairly obvious that physical stillness is an aid to mental stillness, and therefore the potential for mental stillness is greater while sitting than while walking.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 1365
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:17 am
Polar Bear wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:07 am
This is pretty suggestive:
“But, Master Gotama, what is the celestial high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?”
“Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination. With the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. With the fading away as well of rapture, I dwell equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, I experience pleasure with the body; I enter and dwell in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.
“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”
“It is astounding and amazing, Master Gotama! Who else, apart from Master Gotama, can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty, such a celestial high and luxurious bed?

https://suttacentral.net/an3.63/en/bodhi

:anjali:
How can monk gotama walk during jhana? Isn’t the body immobilised?
I think this shows, beyond a doubt, that standing, walking, sitting and lying down are all compatible with attaining any of the four rupa jhanas.

And that puts a nail in the coffin of so called “hard” jhana preachers who deviate from the suttas - preferring instead to follow Buddhaghosa’s lead (viz. that sound and consciousness are not possible in jhana).

If jhana is a heavenly pleasure then we must extend our imagination to reach the heavens and contemplate what heaven is like.

We see excerpts such as “in heaven, flying through the air, feeding on joy” ... etcetera.

We must accept that heavenly beings are conscious and experience all six senses.

And if jhana guarantees rebirth in various heavens, it would be unwise to not only ignore the suttas but also subscribe to a view that one is “unaware” in jhana.

The experience of jhana should at least match the experience of a heavenly being, IMO.

User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 1415
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:30 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:17 am
Polar Bear wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:07 am
This is pretty suggestive:



:anjali:
How can monk gotama walk during jhana? Isn’t the body immobilised?
I think this shows, beyond a doubt, that standing, walking, sitting and lying down are all compatible with attaining any of the four rupa jhanas.

And that puts a nail in the coffin of so called “hard” jhana preachers who deviate from the suttas - preferring instead to follow Buddhaghosa’s lead (viz. that sound and consciousness are not possible in jhana).

If jhana is a heavenly pleasure then we must extend our imagination to reach the heavens and contemplate what heaven is like.

We see excerpts such as “in heaven, flying through the air, feeding on joy” ... etcetera.

We must accept that heavenly beings are conscious and experience all six senses.

And if jhana guarantees rebirth in various heavens, it would be unwise to not only ignore the suttas but also subscribe to a view that one is “unaware” in jhana.

The experience of jhana should at least match the experience of a heavenly being, IMO.
5 sense exp absent in jhana and hence can’t walk or do activities in human realm by humans. Vitaka and vicara also absent. Hence what Buddha mentions sis after effect of jhana while walking and jhana itself while sleeping posture or sitting.
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 1415
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:30 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:17 am
Polar Bear wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:07 am
This is pretty suggestive:



:anjali:
How can monk gotama walk during jhana? Isn’t the body immobilised?
I think this shows, beyond a doubt, that standing, walking, sitting and lying down are all compatible with attaining any of the four rupa jhanas.

And that puts a nail in the coffin of so called “hard” jhana preachers who deviate from the suttas - preferring instead to follow Buddhaghosa’s lead (viz. that sound and consciousness are not possible in jhana).

If jhana is a heavenly pleasure then we must extend our imagination to reach the heavens and contemplate what heaven is like.

We see excerpts such as “in heaven, flying through the air, feeding on joy” ... etcetera.

We must accept that heavenly beings are conscious and experience all six senses.

And if jhana guarantees rebirth in various heavens, it would be unwise to not only ignore the suttas but also subscribe to a view that one is “unaware” in jhana.

The experience of jhana should at least match the experience of a heavenly being, IMO.
Conciousness is diff awareness is diff in Buddhist literature
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 1365
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

@ confusedlayman

Yeah, no. Try reading the sutta reference again.
“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”
Your stubborn view of jhana does not coincide with the words of the Buddha. Find a new definition of jhana, please. And stop misrepresenting the suttas.

User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 1415
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by confusedlayman »

Pondera wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:14 pm
@ confusedlayman

Yeah, no. Try reading the sutta reference again.
“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”
Your stubborn view of jhana does not coincide with the words of the Buddha. Find a new definition of jhana, please. And stop misrepresenting the suttas.
There is no 5 sense exp in jhana because 5 sense exp is hiderance. 3rd jhana no gross body perception and 4th too. In one pointed concentration u can’t walk or go toilet or run or ride a aeroplane. The above sutta is not to be taken literally.
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 1365
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:13 pm
Pondera wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:14 pm
@ confusedlayman

Yeah, no. Try reading the sutta reference again.
“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”
Your stubborn view of jhana does not coincide with the words of the Buddha. Find a new definition of jhana, please. And stop misrepresenting the suttas.
There is no 5 sense exp in jhana because 5 sense exp is hiderance. 3rd jhana no gross body perception and 4th too. In one pointed concentration u can’t walk or go toilet or run or ride a aeroplane. The above sutta is not to be taken literally.
:rofl: “not to be taken literally”

good one, confusedlayman, good one!

I should have realized from the “context” that the Buddha was being metaphorical. It’s quite clear from the sutta. I see that now. Thank you for clearing the fog.

In the future, I’ll be sure to take the word of obscure, medieval meditation techniques seriously and avoid taking the Buddha’s words seriously.

Tremendous insight on your part. Thank you. I don’t see why you call yourself “confused”. Quite clearly, you are qualified to decide whether a sutta gets taken literally or not! :rolleye:

(What a crock of shyte)

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 1365
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:13 pm
Pondera wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:14 pm
@ confusedlayman

Yeah, no. Try reading the sutta reference again.
“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”
Your stubborn view of jhana does not coincide with the words of the Buddha. Find a new definition of jhana, please. And stop misrepresenting the suttas.
There is no 5 sense exp in jhana because 5 sense exp is hiderance. 3rd jhana no gross body perception and 4th too. In one pointed concentration u can’t walk or go toilet or run or ride a aeroplane. The above sutta is not to be taken literally.
I’m sorry. I can’t just let this go with a sarcastic remark on my behalf. You’re terribly wrong and you’re a horrible influence on anyone new to Buddhism.

5 sense exp is a hinderance? Wrong.
Sensual desire (kamacchanda),
Ill-will (byapada),
Sloth and torpor (thina-middha),
Restlessness and remorse (uddhacca-kukkucca),
Sceptical doubt (vicikiccha).
Sensual desire is a hinderance - not perception. So, you are quite literally wrong in this regard.

Third jhana? No gross body perception? Wrong.
"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.
See that? “With the body”? Should I take this literally or not? If I do, you’re utterly wrong again. How should I take this?

And last but certainly not least “this sutta shouldn’t be taken literally”? What the actual phuck?

Where the hell do you get the authority to say that a straight forward sutta like the one in question shouldn’t be taken literally?

I mean, I completely understand that you can’t come to terms with the actual teachings of Buddhism ... I understand that in order for you to keep your screwed up views you have to say that ...

But since you’re already digging your own grave, answer me this. What is it about that sutta that isn’t literal?

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 7828
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by DooDoot »

Pondera wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:30 am
And that puts a nail in the coffin of so called “hard” jhana preachers...
It doesn't. When the mind emerges from jhana, it remains blissful or heavenly to merely a slightly lesser degree. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 1365
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Heavenly Pleasure

Post by Pondera »

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:32 am
Pondera wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:30 am
And that puts a nail in the coffin of so called “hard” jhana preachers...
It doesn't. When the mind emerges from jhana, it remains blissful or heavenly to merely a slightly lesser degree. :smile:
Personal experience or unsupported conjecture. I haven’t personally seen such a sentiment written anywhere in the suttas (and Lord knows I must have read 20 % of them).

Furthermore, there is every indication that the Samādhi produced by the rupa jhanas leads to right view with regard to the skhandas. And there is nothing to support the idea that one cannot practice discernment while in jhana. The purpose of jhana is to attain Samādhi. The purpose of Samādhi is to “truly know and see things as they really are.”
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
This “there” pertains to the absorption itself. This “there” refers (among the other skhandas) to perception. So to assert that one does not perceive while in rupa jhana is to assert that they can not go forward with right view on the basis of concentration.

I know what you’re going to say. You’re going to say that the practitioner emerges from jhana and then goes about vipasanna.

To this is say, over and over again, the state of jhana says that “he regards whatever phenomenon there” ... as a dart, a cancer, an emptiness, etcetera.

Apart from all that, this sutta we’ve been arguing about specifically says “when I am in that state” ... my walking is celestial, and so forth.

Please don’t tell me that this sutta is not to be taken literally!

Post Reply