Suttas about castes

[greenjuice]

Again me with a question about what the Suttas say Now, i know that the Buddha does talk about how one is not a brahman by birth but by moral behavior etc, and also how anyone from any caste is pure or impure not on the basis of their caste but their morality, but does any Sutta talks against the caste system directly in any way? Even Hindu scripture have some sparse verse kinda going against the caste system, one scripture saying everyone is born a sudra and that by behavior they become something else (or not), or another scripture saying everyone is born a brahman but just having different profession. Not really anything strong, not saying hey this is oppressive that most people serve priests, warrior-nobles, and land owners and bankers. Maybe Buddha said something like that?

[SarathW]

"Do you know, brahman, who an outcast is and what the conditions are that make an outcast?" "No, indeed, Venerable Gotama, I do not know who an outcast is nor the conditions that make an outcast. It is good if Venerable Gotama were to explain the Dhamma to me so that I may know who an outcast is and what the conditions are that make an outcast."[1]

"Listen then, brahman, and pay attention, I will speak."

"Yes, Venerable Sir," replied the brahman.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

[DooDoot]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

Possibly we can quote some more literal suttas that support the caste system:

Hindu-style outcastes:

And what, mendicants, is a hopeless person? It’s when some person is reborn in a low family—a family of outcastes, bamboo-workers, hunters, chariot-makers, or waste-collectors—poor, with little to eat or drink, where life is tough, and food and shelter are hard to find. And they’re ugly, unsightly, deformed, chronically ill—one-eyed, crippled, lame, or half-paralyzed. They don’t get to have food, drink, clothes, and vehicles; garlands, fragrances, and makeup; or bed, house, and lighting. They hear this: ‘They say the aristocrats have anointed the aristocrat named so-and-so as king.’ It never occurs to them: ‘Oh, when will the aristocrats anoint me too as king?’ This is called a hopeless person.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.13/en/sujato

British-style aristocratic elitism:

The aristocrat is best of those people
who take clan as the standard.
But one accomplished in knowledge and conduct
is best of gods and humans.

https://suttacentral.net/sn6.11/en/sujato

Hitler-style racial/tribal breeding program:

In the past brahmins had sex only with brahmin women, not with others. These days brahmins have sex with both brahmin women and others. But these days dogs have sex only with female dogs, not with other species. This is the first tradition of the brahmins seen these days among dogs, but not among brahmins.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.191/en/sujato

The only Communist Cultural Marxist-style equality i can find is within the Sangha:

When they reach the ocean, all the great rivers—that is, the Ganges, Yamunā, Aciravatī, Sarabhū, and Mahī—lose their names and clans and are simply considered ‘the ocean’. In the same way, when they go forth from the lay life to homelessness, all four castes—aristocrats, brahmins, merchants, and workers—lose their former names and clans and are simply considered ‘Sakyan ascetics’. This is the fourth thing the mendicants love about this teaching and training.

https://suttacentral.net/an8.19/en/sujato

[SarathW]

I can find is within the Sangha:

It is very disappointing specially Sri Lankan monks still have the cast system.
Do you find this among say, Thai and Burmese Sangha?

[binocular]

Maybe Buddha said something like that?

Was the Buddha a humanist social reformer?
Was the Buddha an "engaged Buddhist"?

[DooDoot]

Was the Buddha a humanist social reformer?
Was the Buddha an "engaged Buddhist"?

I think the Buddha might have been a moral reformer rather than a social reformer. For example, the following sutta appears to show the Buddha had no objections to the four-fold distinction of 'birth', 'identity' or 'caste' ('jati') based on natural variations in disposition (nānā+dhimuttikata):

That’s so true, Vāseṭṭha! That’s so true, Vāseṭṭha! If all the aristocrats, brahmins, merchants, and workers were to observe this sabbath with its eight factors, it would be for their lasting welfare and happiness. If the whole world—with its gods, Māras and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, gods and humans—were to observe this sabbath with its eight factors, it would be for their lasting welfare and happiness.

https://suttacentral.net/an8.44/en/sujato

However, the following sutta seems to show the Buddha was against superficial caste discrimination or prejudice rather than in favour of the abolition of 'caste'. In other words, the Buddha appears to say the different castes respecting & serving each other is morally beneficial:

Brahmin, I don’t say that you should serve everyone, nor do I say that you shouldn’t serve anyone. I say that you shouldn’t serve someone if serving them makes you worse, not better. And I say that you should serve someone if serving them makes you better, not worse.

Brahmin, I don’t say that you should serve everyone, nor do I say that you shouldn’t serve anyone. And I say that you should serve someone if serving them makes you grow in faith, ethics, learning, generosity, and wisdom. I say that you shouldn’t serve someone if serving them doesn’t make you grow in faith, ethics, learning, generosity, and wisdom.

https://suttacentral.net/mn96/en/sujato

The teaching below does not appear to be Communism:

In five ways should a master minister to his servants and employees as the Nadir:

(i) by assigning them work according to their ability,
(ii) by supplying them with food and with wages,
(iii) by tending them in sickness,
(iv) by sharing with them any delicacies,
(v) by granting them leave at times.

The servants and employees thus ministered to as the Nadir by their master show their compassion to him in five ways:

(i) they rise before him,
(ii) they go to sleep after him,
(iii) they take only what is given,
(iv) they perform their duties well,
(v) they uphold his good name and fame.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html

Although the teaching below may offend or upset the money-lenders:

And what is the bliss of debtlessness? There is the case where the son of a good family owes no debt, great or small, to anyone at all. When he thinks, 'I owe no debt, great or small, to anyone at all,' he experiences bliss, he experiences joy. This is called the bliss of debtlessness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[confusedlayman]

Again me with a question about what the Suttas say Now, i know that the Buddha does talk about how one is not a brahman by birth but by moral behavior etc, and also how anyone from any caste is pure or impure not on the basis of their caste but their morality, but does any Sutta talks against the caste system directly in any way? Even Hindu scripture have some sparse verse kinda going against the caste system, one scripture saying everyone is born a sudra and that by behavior they become something else (or not), or another scripture saying everyone is born a brahman but just having different profession. Not really anything strong, not saying hey this is oppressive that most people serve priests, warrior-nobles, and land owners and bankers. Maybe Buddha said something like that?

he said discrimination against caste is wrong as all members in all caste experience suffering and happiness but brahmins are naturally meditative but has wrong views so most brahmins became buddhas disciple easily as they had jhana easily.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

“Here, brahmin youth, a certain woman or man is obdurate and conceited — he or she does not pay homage to those deserving homage, does not stand up, does not offer a seat, does not step aside from a path, does not show honour, respect, reverence, or worship to one who deserves it. Due to that kamma, on the breakup of the body after death he or she arises in a state of woe, in a bad destination, in hell. If not reborn in hell, if he or she is reborn as a human-being he or she is reborn into a family of low status. This, brahmin youth, is the result of being obdurate and conceited.

“However, brahmin youth, a certain woman or man is compliant and humble — he or she pays homage to those deserving homage, stands up, offers a seat, steps aside from a path, shows honour, respect, reverence, or worship to one who deserves it. Due to that kamma, on the breakup of the body after death he or she arises in heaven, in a fortunate destination. If not reborn in heaven, if he or she is reborn as a human-being he or she is reborn into a family of high status. This, brahmin youth, is the result of being compliant and humble. (Cūḷakammavibhaṅga Suttaṃ)

[greenjuice]

To paraphrase Rousseau - i admit that low or high status birth comes from past kamma, but also so does sickness, does that mean that we are forbidden to have doctors?

[greenjuice]

I found Vasettha Sutta which talks about the topic of occupations and birth and differentiations:

"600. The Blessed One said: Vasettha, I will tell you step by step how it happens, The classification of living things in this and other births.
601. Look at the grass and trees, although they are not aware, This and the other have attributes peculiar to their births.
602. So also insects, like grasshoppers and ants They have attributes peculiar to their births.
603. Look at the animals small and large They have attributes peculiar to their births.
604. Look at the serpents with long backs going on their bellies, They have attributes peculiar to their births.
605. Look at the fish too, who find food in the water. They have attributes peculiar to their births.
606. Look at the birds flying through the air. They have attributes peculiar to their births.
607. Although these have various attributes, at birth, In humans various attributes are not evident at birth.
608. They are not in the hair, head, ears or eyes Not in the mouth, nose, lips or eye-lashes
609. Not in the neck, flanks stomach or back, Not in the buttocks, chest, pudendum, nor in the sexual intercourse.
610. Not in the hands, feet, fingers or nails, nor in the knees and calves, Not in the hue or voice, by which to know their birth.
611. In the individual bodies of humans, these are not evident, Any difference is said to be due to convention.
612. Among humans whoever makes a livelihood by looking after cattle, Vasettha, know him as a farmer, not as a brahmin.
613. Among humans whoever makes a livelihood doing a craft, Vasettha, know him as a craftsman, not as a brahmin.
614. Among humans whoever makes a livelihood by trading, Vasettha, know him as a merchant, not as a brahmin.
615. Among humans whoever makes a livelihood working for others, Vasettha, know him as a workman, not a brahmin.
616. Among humans whoever makes a livelihood out of what is not given, Vasettha, know he is a robber, not a brahmin.
617. Among humans whoever makes a livelihood serving the king, Vasettha, know he is a soldier, not a brahmin.
618. Among humans whoever makes a livelihood by advising the king, Vasettha, know he is the adviser, not a brahmin.
619. Among humans whoever makes a livelihood enjoying the wealth of the village and country, Vàsettha, know he is the king, not a brahmin.
620. One born of a brahmin woman's womb is not a brahmin..."

[Kusala]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

Possibly we can quote some more literal suttas that support the caste system:

Hindu-style outcastes:

And what, mendicants, is a hopeless person? It’s when some person is reborn in a low family—a family of outcastes, bamboo-workers, hunters, chariot-makers, or waste-collectors—poor, with little to eat or drink, where life is tough, and food and shelter are hard to find. And they’re ugly, unsightly, deformed, chronically ill—one-eyed, crippled, lame, or half-paralyzed. They don’t get to have food, drink, clothes, and vehicles; garlands, fragrances, and makeup; or bed, house, and lighting. They hear this: ‘They say the aristocrats have anointed the aristocrat named so-and-so as king.’ It never occurs to them: ‘Oh, when will the aristocrats anoint me too as king?’ This is called a hopeless person.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.13/en/sujato

British-style aristocratic elitism:

The aristocrat is best of those people
who take clan as the standard.
But one accomplished in knowledge and conduct
is best of gods and humans.

https://suttacentral.net/sn6.11/en/sujato

Hitler-style racial/tribal breeding program:

In the past brahmins had sex only with brahmin women, not with others. These days brahmins have sex with both brahmin women and others. But these days dogs have sex only with female dogs, not with other species. This is the first tradition of the brahmins seen these days among dogs, but not among brahmins.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.191/en/sujato

The only Communist Cultural Marxist-style equality i can find is within the Sangha:

When they reach the ocean, all the great rivers—that is, the Ganges, Yamunā, Aciravatī, Sarabhū, and Mahī—lose their names and clans and are simply considered ‘the ocean’. In the same way, when they go forth from the lay life to homelessness, all four castes—aristocrats, brahmins, merchants, and workers—lose their former names and clans and are simply considered ‘Sakyan ascetics’. This is the fourth thing the mendicants love about this teaching and training.

https://suttacentral.net/an8.19/en/sujato

The suttas above make a lot more sense now. So the rivalry between the warrior caste and priestly caste was really based on genetic lines...


History of Ancient Indian Conquest Told in Modern Genes, Experts Say https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/ASI ... 928833.php

During the genetic studies, in 1996 and 1997, researchers took blood samples from hundreds of people in southern India. The analyses compared the genes from 316 caste members and 330 members of tribal populations, looking for signs of Asian, European and African ancestry.

In the mitochondrial genes passed along by females, Jorde said, they could see the clear background of Asian genes. "All of the caste groups were similar to Asians, the underlying population" that had originally been subdued.

But, he added, "when we look at the Y chromosome DNA, we see a very different pattern. The lower castes are most similar to Asians, and the upper castes are more European than Asian."

Further, "when we look at the different components within the upper caste, the group with the greatest European similarity of all is the warrior class, the Kshatriya, who are still at the top of the Hindu castes, with the Brahmins," Jorde said.

"But the Brahmins, in terms of their Y chromosomes, are a little bit more Asian."