Psychology of dukkha (and sukkha) (for laypeople)

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.
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DooDoot
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Re: Psychology of dukkha (and sukkha) (for laypeople)

Post by DooDoot » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:54 am

greenjuice wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:03 am
So, you're not only dismissive and uninformed about psychotherapy
If psychotherapy was so fabulous, clients would not have paid for scores of visits, even hundreds, without obtaining any tangible results.
greenjuice wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:03 am
I hate to be the one to tell you, but that will make any attempt on your part to have metta and karuna a empty lip service until you deal with that.
According to the Buddhist teachings, promoting psychotherapy is not metta or karuna. Psychotherapy is largely a commercial business enterprise that uses weak methods that result in repeat visits from paying clients. In Buddhism, metta & karuna teaches Dhamma. In AN 9.5, it is said the gift of Dhamma is the greatest gift of benevolence.
greenjuice wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:03 am
If you were to do a simple googling to see what those eight tiers were, you wouldn't type this nonsense. Or you would, you seem like the type.
I studied Maslow when I was doing a Bachelor of Science in Psychology [academic record posted at bottom]. I do not recall posting Maslow's mundane theory was "non-sense".

Also, I did training in secular "client-centred" counselling, which is basically about acknowledging the feelings of the client and prompting the client to find their own options & solutions. None of this is related to Buddhism, which teaches a defined path of living.
greenjuice wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:03 am
Sorry for not believing you.
Well, for a non-Buddhist (one who takes refuge in the alien doctrines of outsiders) to infer a Buddhist a liar has no merit in Buddhism.
greenjuice wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:03 am
And he just keeps it making it worse.
Not at all. Are you denying most US media, including Hollywood, is owned by Jewish individuals; or deny the reality of this article? You seem to be denying certain Jewish people have a large disproportional influence in the world. What actually makes it worse is not taking refuge in the Triple Gem. The Triple Gem does not include Judaic Apologetics. As Buddhists, we don't fear Yahweh punishing us.
greenjuice wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:03 am
It's an embarrassment this community tolerates your nonsense. I know i will not, and will not waste any more time replying to them.
I think it is obvious by your posting history Buddhism and Buddhist practise is not greatly familiar to you; apart from what you have learned from superficial sources. The history of your questions here shows you take more recent cultural "folk" Buddhist teachings as the real Buddhist teachings. My impression is you have devoted most time to studying alien doctrines and possibly want to add Buddhism to your "CV".

The bottom line is the Buddha taught Three Trainings, namely, Morality, Concentration & Wisdom. For lay people, as stated in DN 31, the Buddha generally , for the most part, taught morality. When people truly understand morality, they won't need psychotherapy. All of the psychotherapists will be put out of business by morality. :smile:
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There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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binocular
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Re: Psychology of dukkha (and sukkha) (for laypeople)

Post by binocular » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:58 pm

greenjuice wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:10 pm
One, worldly happiness can also be mental, not just sensual.
In Buddhist terminology, what you call "mental" is still sensual.
Two, Buddha gave psychotherapy advice to lay people. The point of this topic i opened is to see if people remember reading Suttas containing such advice. If you disagree with the topic you don't need to comment.
I have never seen such advice. More importantly, it seems it would be against the teachings to give such advice.
The Buddha taught suffering and the end of suffering. Not suffering and something other than the end of suffering. In the Buddhist teachings, there is no third and a half "noble truth" called "suffering is manageable".
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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greenjuice
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Re: Psychology of dukkha (and sukkha) (for laypeople)

Post by greenjuice » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:24 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:58 pm
In Buddhist terminology, what you call "mental" is still sensual.
Afaik, there are six sense bases, the five senses plus the mind. So mind is separate from the sensual, from the five senses.
I have never seen such advice.
Dighajanu Sutta is the most famous one, but there's also Anana Sutta, Kāmabhogī Sutta, and others. In Aputtaka Sutta Buddha even criticizes lay people who are wealthy and don't enjoy their wealth but live modestly, although such a criticism is mentioned also in the Dighajanu Sutta.
More importantly, it seems it would be against the teachings to give such advice.
Buddha seemed to disagree.

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DooDoot
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Re: Psychology of dukkha (and sukkha) (for laypeople)

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:17 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:58 pm
I have never seen such advice.
My impression is a claim the Buddha was a psychotherapist. Buddha = psychotherapist. Psychotherapist = A Buddha.
There are over a thousand different psychotherapy techniques, some being minor variations, while others are based on very different conceptions of psychology, ethics (how to live), or techniques

Wiki
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SteRo
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Re: Psychology of dukkha (and sukkha) (for laypeople)

Post by SteRo » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:20 am

I find it a bit strange that psychology is discussed in the Classical Theravada forum.

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DooDoot
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Re: Psychology of dukkha (and sukkha) (for laypeople)

Post by DooDoot » Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:23 am

SteRo wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:20 am
I find it a bit strange that psychology is discussed in the Classical Theravada forum.
Well, the OP started the topic with what appeared to be the idea, when Suttas and the Commentaries talk about dukkha, they usually frame it not in psychology, but in metaphysics and ontology. The OP appears to think Classical Theravada views "sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair" to be metaphysics and ontology.
MN 141 wrote:And what is sorrow? Whatever sorrow, sorrowing, sadness, inward sorrow, inward sadness of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called sorrow.

"And what is lamentation? Whatever crying, grieving, lamenting, weeping, wailing, lamentation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called lamentation.

"And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.

"And what is distress? Whatever is experienced as mental pain, mental discomfort, pain or discomfort born of mental contact, that is called distress.

"And what is despair? Whatever despair, despondency, desperation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called despair.

"And what is the stress of not getting what is wanted? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SteRo
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Re: Psychology of dukkha (and sukkha) (for laypeople)

Post by SteRo » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:14 am

DooDoot wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:23 am
SteRo wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:20 am
I find it a bit strange that psychology is discussed in the Classical Theravada forum.
Well, the OP started the topic with what appeared to be the idea, when Suttas and the Commentaries talk about dukkha, they usually frame it not in psychology, but in metaphysics and ontology. The OP appears to think Classical Theravada views "sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair" to be metaphysics and ontology.
I wouldn't frame it in psychology either because from my perspective 'psychology' stands for a non-dharmic discipline.

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greenjuice
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Re: Psychology of dukkha (and sukkha) (for laypeople)

Post by greenjuice » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:08 am

SteRo wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:20 am
I find it a bit strange that psychology is discussed in the Classical Theravada forum.
The point of the topic was to ask people to reference Suttas which give psychological advice (which lay people could apply).

SteRo
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Re: Psychology of dukkha (and sukkha) (for laypeople)

Post by SteRo » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:15 am

greenjuice wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:08 am
SteRo wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:20 am
I find it a bit strange that psychology is discussed in the Classical Theravada forum.
The point of the topic was to ask people to reference Suttas which give psychological advice (which lay people could apply).
Don't get me wrong you are of course free to stick to the notion of 'psychological advice' which I would reject because from my perspective 'psychology' stands for a non-dharmic discipline.

:anjali:

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