What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

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DooDoot
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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by DooDoot »

zan wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:24 am
Thanks, I'm lost, though, are you arguing for the classical Theravada position or against?
My intention is not to argue against the classical Theravada position, even though it may sound as though I am. My intention is to point out MN 93 (about the gandhabba) does not explicitly support the classical Theravada position; per the topic question. MN 93 does not say for what period of time, if any, the gandhabba was waiting or floating around before it descended into an embryo. Regards. :smile:
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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by zan »

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:48 am
zan wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:24 am
Thanks, I'm lost, though, are you arguing for the classical Theravada position or against?
My intention is not to argue against the classical Theravada position, even though it may sound as though I am. My intention is to point out MN 93 (about the gandhabba) does not explicitly support the classical Theravada position; per the topic question. Regards. :smile:
Thanks. I wasn't sure which direction you were headed lol. Sorry :)
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salayatananirodha
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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by salayatananirodha »

Nicolas wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:04 pm
These suttas might be relevant:
Kutūhalasālā Sutta (SN 44.9) wrote: “Yasmiñca pana, bho gotama, samaye imañca kāyaṃ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṃ kāyaṃ anupapanno hoti, imassa pana bhavaṃ gotamo kiṃ upādānasmiṃ paññāpetī”ti?
“Yasmiṃ kho, vaccha, samaye imañca kāyaṃ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṃ kāyaṃ anupapanno hoti, tamahaṃ taṇhūpādānaṃ vadāmi. Taṇhā hissa, vaccha, tasmiṃ samaye upādānaṃ hotī”ti.


[Bodhi:]
“And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?”
“When, Vaccha, a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For on that occasion craving is its fuel.”

[Thanissaro:]
“And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?”
“Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time.”

[Sujato:]
“But when someone who is attached has laid down this body and has not been reborn in one of the realms, what does Master Gotama say is their fuel then?”
“When someone who is attached has laid down this body, Vaccha, and has not been reborn in one of the realms, I say they’re fueled by craving.
For craving is their fuel then.”
hi, this is simply a mistranslation. read below:
rebirth immediate gandhabba ñāṇananda.jpg
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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salayatananirodha
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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by salayatananirodha »

immediate rebirth is implied from the meeting of the three conditions of conception (MN 38), according to the formula of dependent arising:

'this being -- this comes to be'
'with the arising of this -- this arises'
'this not being -- this does not come to be'
'with the cessation of this -- this ceases'
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

zan
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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by zan »

salayatananirodha wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:52 am
immediate rebirth is implied from the meeting of the three conditions of conception (MN 38), according to the formula of dependent arising:

'this being -- this comes to be'
'with the arising of this -- this arises'
'this not being -- this does not come to be'
'with the cessation of this -- this ceases'
Thanks!

I have also read that the Buddha classified three bhavas and so:
Kāmabhavo, rūpabhavo, arūpabhavo. There's no fourth called 'antarabhāva'. A being that dies is born immediately. "gandhabbo ca paccupaṭṭhito hoti" refers to that immediate arrival.
-trekmentor
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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by zan »

salayatananirodha wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:44 am
Nicolas wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:04 pm
These suttas might be relevant:
Kutūhalasālā Sutta (SN 44.9) wrote: “Yasmiñca pana, bho gotama, samaye imañca kāyaṃ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṃ kāyaṃ anupapanno hoti, imassa pana bhavaṃ gotamo kiṃ upādānasmiṃ paññāpetī”ti?
“Yasmiṃ kho, vaccha, samaye imañca kāyaṃ nikkhipati, satto ca aññataraṃ kāyaṃ anupapanno hoti, tamahaṃ taṇhūpādānaṃ vadāmi. Taṇhā hissa, vaccha, tasmiṃ samaye upādānaṃ hotī”ti.


[Bodhi:]
“And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?”
“When, Vaccha, a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For on that occasion craving is its fuel.”

[Thanissaro:]
“And at the moment when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, what do you designate as its sustenance then?”
“Vaccha, when a being sets this body aside and is not yet reborn in another body, I designate it as craving-sustained, for craving is its sustenance at that time.”

[Sujato:]
“But when someone who is attached has laid down this body and has not been reborn in one of the realms, what does Master Gotama say is their fuel then?”
“When someone who is attached has laid down this body, Vaccha, and has not been reborn in one of the realms, I say they’re fueled by craving.
For craving is their fuel then.”
hi, this is simply a mistranslation. read below:
rebirth immediate gandhabba ñāṇananda
Wow! Bravo! Thanks!
I am just a learner. Keep that in mind when you read my words.

Just to be safe, assume all of my words could be incorrect. Look to an arahant for total accuracy and confirmation.

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Nicolas
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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by Nicolas »

zan wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:33 pm
Thanks. Are these suttas meant to show a direct counter to the classical Theravada position as presented in the op?
zan wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:39 pm
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, please correct me if so, this too sounds like you are presenting information to discredit the classical Theravada position.

Thanks for the thought but what I was asking for was suttas that support the classical position, not the exact opposite of that.
Yes, my apologies, I know you asked for suttas which support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth, I thought what I quoted was relevant (in that it was opposed to that view, thematically connected) and could be useful to discuss/debate. Moderators, please feel free to remove my posts if they don't fit.
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:15 am
For example, let us imagine the gandhabba is as you claim or imagine it is.
I don't claim or imagine anything, I was merely presenting information, not my opinion.
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:48 am
My intention is not to argue against the classical Theravada position, even though it may sound as though I am. My intention is to point out MN 93 (about the gandhabba) does not explicitly support the classical Theravada position; per the topic question.
I could have written the exact same thing.
salayatananirodha wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:44 am
hi, this is simply a mistranslation. read below:
[ñāṇananda quote]
Thank you! Very useful.

sentinel
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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by sentinel »

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:15 am

What I am saying is a soul may have to wait for some time until a new suitable embyro is ready.


:smile:
What does soul here refer to if may I ask ?
“The foot feels the foot when it feels the ground.”

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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by zan »

Nicolas wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:20 am
zan wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:33 pm
Thanks. Are these suttas meant to show a direct counter to the classical Theravada position as presented in the op?
zan wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:39 pm
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, please correct me if so, this too sounds like you are presenting information to discredit the classical Theravada position.

Thanks for the thought but what I was asking for was suttas that support the classical position, not the exact opposite of that.
Yes, my apologies, I know you asked for suttas which support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth, I thought what I quoted was relevant (in that it was opposed to that view, thematically connected) and could be useful to discuss/debate. Moderators, please feel free to remove my posts if they don't fit.
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:15 am
For example, let us imagine the gandhabba is as you claim or imagine it is.
I don't claim or imagine anything, I was merely presenting information, not my opinion.
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:48 am
My intention is not to argue against the classical Theravada position, even though it may sound as though I am. My intention is to point out MN 93 (about the gandhabba) does not explicitly support the classical Theravada position; per the topic question.
I could have written the exact same thing.
salayatananirodha wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:44 am
hi, this is simply a mistranslation. read below:
[ñāṇananda quote]
Thank you! Very useful.
Thanks for clarifying :smile:
I am just a learner. Keep that in mind when you read my words.

Just to be safe, assume all of my words could be incorrect. Look to an arahant for total accuracy and confirmation.

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mikenz66
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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by mikenz66 »

salayatananirodha wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:44 am
hi, this is simply a mistranslation. read below:
rebirth immediate gandhabba ñāṇananda.jpg
It might be useful to have the source of this useful discussion, which is in Chapter 20 of NIbbana, The Mind Stilled:
https://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-cont ... dstilled20
See https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/ for other formats.

:heart:
Mike

zan
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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by zan »

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:17 am
salayatananirodha wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:44 am
hi, this is simply a mistranslation. read below:
rebirth immediate gandhabba ñāṇananda.jpg
It might be useful to have the source of this useful discussion, which is in Chapter 20 of NIbbana, The Mind Stilled:


:heart:
Mike
Thanks!
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Just to be safe, assume all of my words could be incorrect. Look to an arahant for total accuracy and confirmation.

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SDC
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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by SDC »

zan wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:41 am
I know it is immediate, with zero room for any intermediate state (see Venerable Narada Thera, The Buddha and His Teachings, 1964, excerpt below)

What suttas support this view?
Rebirth takes place immediately, irrespective of the place of birth, just as an electromagnetic wave, projected into space, is immediately reproduced in a receiving radio set. Rebirth of the mental flux is also instantaneous and leaves no room whatever for any intermediate state [7] (antarabhava). Pure Buddhism does not support the belief that a spirit of the deceased person takes lodgement in some temporary state until it finds a suitable place for its "reincarnation."
-Venerable Narada Thera
Any state would be the next life, so I seriously doubt you are going to find a sutta that overrides the idea of intermediate states. One could theoretically be a hungry ghost for like a day and then be right there in the womb to be reborn as human the next. I tend to think the whole idea of "intermediate states" not being "real" rebirth comes from Tibetan notions of death. Is that what you are referring to? I'm not necessarily agreeing with Ven. Narada Therea, but even if there were these blips that were less significant (in length or intensity) than an entire human life, they are still "the next life".

Bearing that in mind, do you still want to see evidence that there is no possibility for these less significant states? Because it seems to me that one's time in "any state" is directly determined by their action. It can be 5 aeons in heaven or 15 minutes in hell. I'm just not sure that the presuppositions in your question are taking this into consideration, so I'm not sure how any answer could make a difference.

Just trying to get a little clarification? What is the difference between 5 minutes as a hungry ghost or 80 years as a human? The states are distinct. That is what matters. Would an intermediate state be something other than this?

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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by zan »

.
I am just a learner. Keep that in mind when you read my words.

Just to be safe, assume all of my words could be incorrect. Look to an arahant for total accuracy and confirmation.

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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by suaimhneas »

I think different early schools took different positions on this. Am not sure there's any terribly clear indication in the suttas. Two things that are somewhat suggestive of there being an intermediate state would be SN44.9, which says:
“And, Master Gotama, when a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, what does Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?”
“When, Vaccha, a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For on that occasion craving is its fuel.”
and a stock phrasing which occurs in several places, e.g. in SN46.3:
“If one does not attain final knowledge early in this very life or at the time of death, then with the utter destruction of the five lower fetters one becomes an attainer of Nibbāna in the interval. “If one does not attain final knowledge early in this very life … or become an attainer of Nibbāna in the interval, then with the utter destruction of the five lower fetters one becomes an attainer of Nibbāna upon landing.
“If one does not attain final knowledge early in this very life … … or become an attainer of Nibbāna upon landing, then with the utter destruction of the five lower fetters one becomes an attainer of Nibbāna without exertion.
Does this refer to an intermediate state? Maybe.

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Re: What suttas support the classical Theravada view of immediate rebirth?

Post by auto »

you can reborn after break up of this body to the human world or animal world or ghostly world etc.

If you reborn into a human world and your current life you live as a human then as a result you could think there is no in between state and the rebirth is immediate.

an10.177 could help.

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