Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

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sentinel
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Re: Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

Post by sentinel » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:02 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:29 am
Surely what it means is that the fact that their names are preserved in Pali provides no clue at all as to where they flourished, just as "Alfredus Magnus" provides no clue that Alfred the Great was a Saxon from Wessex, or as "Carolus Magnus" provides no clue that Charlemagne was King of the Franks.
Probably , but surely according to the text the Buddha were pointing to india especially .
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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:27 pm

sentinel wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:02 pm
Probably , but surely according to the text the Buddha were pointing to india especially .
He was pointing to Roseapple Island – a name for the quarter of the human realm that's visible to us and in which Buddhas appear, as opposed to the other three quarters that are invisible to us and in which they don't appear. It's true, of course, that in the Buddha's day, Roseapple Island happened to be the Middle Region of India. But as an indexical term with a shifting referent, Roseapple Island wasn't always India in the past and needn't always be India in the future.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:20 pm

People are apt the forget about time scales. India was part of Pangaea only 175 million years ago, so who knows what the continents will look like or where they will be in the time of the Buddha Mettayya?
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sentinel
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Re: Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

Post by sentinel » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:27 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:27 pm
He was pointing to Roseapple Island – a name for the quarter of the human realm that's visible to us and in which Buddhas appear, as opposed to the other three quarters that are invisible to us and in which they don't appear. It's true, of course, that in the Buddha's day, Roseapple Island happened to be the Middle Region of India. But as an indexical term with a shifting referent, Roseapple Island wasn't always India in the past and needn't always be India in the future.
Greetings venerable ,

I remember the texts were mentioning that in ancient Buddha era there were caste classes at such time and society which include Brahmins and Kshatriyas , thus it is clear the Buddha was referring to india .
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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:56 am

sentinel wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:27 am
I remember the texts were mentioning that in ancient Buddha era there were caste classes at such time and society which include Brahmins and Kshatriyas , thus it is clear the Buddha was referring to india .
Many known societies have had counterparts to the four varṇas.

For example, if 14th century England had been a Pali- or Sanskrit-speaking society, then we should expect the knight, the squire, the yeoman, the man-of-law and the summoner in Chaucer's General Prologue to the Canterbury Tales to be called kśatriyas. The prioress, nun, nun's priests, monk, friar, clerk, parson, pardoner and canon would be the brāhmanas and brāhmiṇīs; the host, merchant, franklin, shipman, physician, manciple, reeve, and Wife of Bath would be vaiśyas; while the haberdasher, carpenter, weaver, dyer, tapester, cook, ploughman and miller would be śūdras.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

Post by sentinel » Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:47 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:56 am
sentinel wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:27 am
I remember the texts were mentioning that in ancient Buddha era there were caste classes at such time and society which include Brahmins and Kshatriyas , thus it is clear the Buddha was referring to india .
Many known societies have had counterparts to the four varṇas.

For example, if 14th century England had been a Pali- or Sanskrit-speaking society, then we should expect the knight, the squire, the yeoman, the man-of-law and the summoner in Chaucer's General Prologue to the Canterbury Tales to be called kśatriyas. The prioress, nun, nun's priests, monk, friar, clerk, parson, pardoner and canon would be the brāhmanas and brāhmiṇīs; the host, merchant, franklin, shipman, physician, manciple, reeve, and Wife of Bath would be vaiśyas; while the haberdasher, carpenter, weaver, dyer, tapester, cook, ploughman and miller would be śūdras.
Well , England was never a Sanskrit speaking society . Never produced a single ariya in ancient times . :juggling:
There were distinction between both india and England where those English prioress, nun, nun's priests, monk, friar, clerk, parson, pardoner and their canon in No Way resemble the ancient Brahmins teachings .

The Brahmins were the highest ranking in the four social classes in ancient India but not the English priests . The English priests appear had no match for the Brahmins teachings .

The Brahmins had to follow :

Be always truthful
Teach his art only to virtuous men
Follow rules of ritual purification
Study Vedas with delight
Never hurt any living creature
Be gentle but steadfast
Have self-control
Be kind, liberal towards everyone
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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:19 am

sentinel wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:47 am
But there were distinction between both india and England where those English prioress, nun, nun's priests, monk, friar, clerk, parson, pardoner and their canon in No Way resemble the ancient Brahmins teachings .
There is a resemblance inasmuch as both groups are the key figures in the established religion of their respective times. Suppose that some Buddha, living in a society stratified like ancient Magadha, recalls a previous Buddha who'd lived in a society that was stratified like 14th century England. In order to convey to the Magadhan audience the social class into which that Buddha had been born he would have needed to resort to the stratifying terms with which they were familiar. Or, to borrow a term from Bible translators, he would need to resort to dynamic equivalence since no form-equivalence is available.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

Post by sentinel » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:34 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:19 am
sentinel wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:47 am
But there were distinction between both india and England where those English prioress, nun, nun's priests, monk, friar, clerk, parson, pardoner and their canon in No Way resemble the ancient Brahmins teachings .
There is a resemblance inasmuch as both groups are the key figures in the established religion of their respective times. Suppose that some Buddha, living in a society stratified like ancient Magadha, recalls a previous Buddha who'd lived in a society that was stratified like 14th century England. In order to convey to the Magadhan audience the social class into which that Buddha had been born he would have needed to resort to the stratifying terms with which they were familiar.
Venerable , 14th century is estimated one thousand eight hundred years after death of the Buddha . We are talking about pre Buddha .
If there happens to miraculously exists any Buddha in England , that is some story about post Buddha .
Btw , I failed to see England or even Great Britain looks like an Apple Rose island .
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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:46 am

sentinel wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:34 am
Venerable, 14th century is estimated one thousand eight hundred years after death of the Buddha . We are talking about pre Buddha .
That's beside the point, for I didn't say "a 14th century English society", but "a society that was stratified like 14th century England".

I could (and probably should) have chosen some other society, say, ancient Sumeria. But the point would still stand: if someone in Magadha is attempting to describe the social position of some person in a non-Magadhan society of a different epoch, he will need to resort to terms with which Magadhans are familiar. That being so, the Buddha's resorting to the 4-varṇa scheme doesn't oblige us to assume that all past Buddhas arose in India.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

sentinel
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Re: Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

Post by sentinel » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:26 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:46 am
sentinel wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:34 am
Venerable, 14th century is estimated one thousand eight hundred years after death of the Buddha . We are talking about pre Buddha .
That's beside the point, for I didn't say "a 14th century English society", but "a society that was stratified like 14th century England".

I could (and probably should) have chosen some other society, say, ancient Sumeria. But the point would still stand: if someone in Magadha is attempting to describe the social position of some person in a non-Magadhan society of a different epoch, he will need to resort to terms with which Magadhans are familiar. That being so, the Buddha's resorting to the 4-varṇa scheme doesn't oblige us to assume that all past Buddhas arose in India.
No other society known in ancient times appear to resemble india society with all their sadhus , yogis and ascetics and caste system uniquely available in India .
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UpasakaAbhaya
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Re: Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

Post by UpasakaAbhaya » Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:11 pm

Dear Friends in Dhamma,

I plan to follow up with some summary of my findings.

But in the meantime, I am still investigating various sources.

Part of my curiosity along these lines is due to having come across mention of a very ancient Buddha, named Brahma-deva Buddha. I came across this in some footnote in either the Buddhavamsa itself, or some connected work while I was at a Theravada monastery. I have been trying to track this down. I have found:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... XKJ-qp9JWn

Sorry about the long url. If one googles "Brahma-deva Buddha" in quotes there are two links to the same document, one in pdf and the other in doc format.

Any info regarding where this document sources its material would be much appreciated. I find it interesting.

This work provides us with the names of three additional Buddhas: Purana Dipankara Buddha, Brahma-deva Buddha, and Purana Gotama Buddha. It appears these Buddhas arose so far back that they would have been previous to even the Vyuha kappa/kalpa.

I'm still interested in any info regarding that past kalpa, and any chronology of its Buddhas. If anyone can point me at the Tibetan Vyuhakalpika Sutra, I may have somebody who can translate it. I'm still trying to track down any info on Buddhas Sirimata, Sumitta, Purana Metteyya, and Mahutta, which seem to be of Pali/Theravada origin. I've also found mention of a Buddha Ratna and a Buddha Prabhakara, though these seem to be Mahayana sourced.

Metta and peace,
Bowing and thanks,
Upasaka Abhaya

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Will
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Re: Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

Post by Will » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:16 pm

sentinel - "The Brahmins were the highest ranking in the four social classes in ancient India..."

Not so, the Kshatriya warrior Kings were the highest long, long ago. Forgot the source. Also the social classes were based on the proportion of gunas or qualities, not heredity.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

tamdrin
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Re: Buddhas before Lord Tanhankara

Post by tamdrin » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:19 am

UpasakaAbhaya wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:11 pm
Dear Friends in Dhamma,

I plan to follow up with some summary of my findings.

But in the meantime, I am still investigating various sources.

Part of my curiosity along these lines is due to having come across mention of a very ancient Buddha, named Brahma-deva Buddha. I came across this in some footnote in either the Buddhavamsa itself, or some connected work while I was at a Theravada monastery. I have been trying to track this down. I have found:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... XKJ-qp9JWn

Sorry about the long url. If one googles "Brahma-deva Buddha" in quotes there are two links to the same document, one in pdf and the other in doc format.

Any info regarding where this document sources its material would be much appreciated. I find it interesting.

This work provides us with the names of three additional Buddhas: Purana Dipankara Buddha, Brahma-deva Buddha, and Purana Gotama Buddha. It appears these Buddhas arose so far back that they would have been previous to even the Vyuha kappa/kalpa.

I'm still interested in any info regarding that past kalpa, and any chronology of its Buddhas. If anyone can point me at the Tibetan Vyuhakalpika Sutra, I may have somebody who can translate it. I'm still trying to track down any info on Buddhas Sirimata, Sumitta, Purana Metteyya, and Mahutta, which seem to be of Pali/Theravada origin. I've also found mention of a Buddha Ratna and a Buddha Prabhakara, though these seem to be Mahayana sourced.

Metta and peace,
Bowing and thanks,
Upasaka Abhaya
I am a translator of Tibetan to English believe it or not. If you can give me the name of the Tibetan Sutra I can look into it.

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