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When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:00 am
by Srilankaputra
From AN 6.63
And what is the cessation of sensual pleasures?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho?

When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease.
Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho.
https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/sujato

But it is also said that an Anagamin has given up sensuality.

Can it be said that an Anagamin has achieved cessation of all contact ?
or can i say that an Anagamin has achieved cessation of any contact connected with sensuality only?


Which leads to a bigger question, why is nirodha translated as cessation?
(For me, nirodha in the above means giving up any ignorance and craving connected with that. It has a sense of being made inconsequential)

Thank you!

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:12 am
by DooDoot
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:00 am
Can it be said that an Anagamin has achieved cessation of all contact ?
I suggest you probably need to revise what you believe the word "cessation" ("nirodha") to mean. You should question your own views rather than question the sutta. Kind regards :smile:

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:56 am
by Srilankaputra
Perhaps my question is not clear. Let me try to ask in a different manner.

It is an Arahant that can be said to have achieved cessation of contact. Yes, definitely one can say sensuality has ceased for an Arahant. But an Anagamin is also said to have given up sensuality. How should the two be reconciled ?

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:22 am
by sentinel
Which text says anagamin eliminated sensuality .

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:00 pm
by DooDoot
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:56 am
It is an Arahant that can be said to have achieved cessation of contact.
The above probably needs to be explained.

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:30 pm
by Srilankaputra
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:00 pm
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:56 am
It is an Arahant that can be said to have achieved cessation of contact.
The above probably needs to be explained.
Thank you for this question!
Avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā saṅkhāranirodho, saṅkhāranirodhā viññāṇanirodho, viññāṇanirodhā nāmarūpanirodho, nāmarūpanirodhā saḷāyatananirodho, saḷāyatananirodhā phassanirodho, phassanirodhā vedanānirodho, vedanānirodhā taṇhānirodho, taṇhānirodhā upādānanirodho, upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho, bhavanirodhā jātinirodho, jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā nirujjhanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hotī”ti.

But from the complete fading away and cessation of ignorance, there is the cessation of volitional processes, from the cessation of volitional processes, the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness, the cessation of mind and body, from the cessation of mind and body, the cessation of the six sense spheres, from the cessation of the six sense spheres, the cessation of contact, from the cessation of contact, the cessation of feeling, from the cessation of feeling, the cessation of craving, from the cessation of craving, the cessation of attachment, from the cessation of attachment, the cessation of continuation, from the cessation of continuation, the cessation of birth, from the cessation of birth, old age, death, grief, lamentation, pain, sorrow, and despair all cease, and so there is a cessation of this whole mass of suffering.”

https://suttacentral.net/ud1.3/en/anandajoti
If an living Arahant has achieved the cessation* of ignorance it follows that he has achieved the cessation* of contact.

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:04 pm
by Volo
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:00 am
From AN 6.63
And what is the cessation of sensual pleasures?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho?

When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease.
Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho.
https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/sujato

But it is also said that an Anagamin has given up sensuality.
I don't remember exact wordings in the suttas, but isn't it kāmarāga, which anagamin is freed from? There might be some difference. Although kāma often means "sensual desire", sometimes it can signify an object of sensual desire (i.e. form, sound, smell, taste, touch).

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:40 pm
by Srilankaputra
Volo wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:04 pm
I don't remember exact wordings in the suttas, but isn't it kāmarāga, which anagamin is freed from?
Yes, an Anagamin is said to be free of the following samyojana

Sakkāyadiṭṭhi
Sīlabbataparāmāsa
Vicikicchā
Kāmarāga
Byāpāda

Do you think it can be said that an Anagamin has achieved kāmanirodha?

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:02 pm
by Volo
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:40 pm
Volo wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:04 pm
I don't remember exact wordings in the suttas, but isn't it kāmarāga, which anagamin is freed from?
Yes, an Anagamin is said to be free of the following samyojana

Sakkāyadiṭṭhi
Sīlabbataparāmāsa
Vicikicchā
Kāmarāga
Byāpāda

Do you think it can be said that an Anagamin has achieved kāmanirodha?
Depends on what you mean by kāmanirodha. My idea was that Anagamin doesn't have lust for sensuality, but he still can perceive sensuality through sense faculties. Cessation of contact would eliminate this.

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:15 pm
by Srilankaputra
Volo wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:02 pm
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:40 pm
Volo wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:04 pm
I don't remember exact wordings in the suttas, but isn't it kāmarāga, which anagamin is freed from?
Yes, an Anagamin is said to be free of the following samyojana

Sakkāyadiṭṭhi
Sīlabbataparāmāsa
Vicikicchā
Kāmarāga
Byāpāda

Do you think it can be said that an Anagamin has achieved kāmanirodha?
Depends on what you mean by kāmanirodha. My idea was that Anagamin doesn't have lust for sensuality, but he still can perceive it through sense faculties. Cessation of contact would eliminate this.
Can you elaborate on this please? 'Cessation of contact would eliminate this'

Do you mean passa-nirodha happens at the final passing away of an Arahant?

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:31 pm
by Volo
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:15 pm
Do you mean passa-nirodha happens at the final passing away of an Arahant?
Yes.

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:53 pm
by Srilankaputra
Volo wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:31 pm
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:15 pm
Do you mean passa-nirodha happens at the final passing away of an Arahant?
Yes.
Is it not accurate to say that an living Arahant has achieved passa-nirodha as per ud1.3 which I quoted above?

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:13 pm
by Volo
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:53 pm
Is it not accurate to say that an living Arahant has achieved passa-nirodha as per ud1.3 which I quoted above?
Contact is a coming together of object (e.g. form), sensitive organ (eye) and corresponding consciousness (eye consciousness). Therefore even Buddha had contacts. What concerns links of DO: previous ignorance and kamma conditioned nāma-rūpa of the arahant-to-be, 6 sense spheres, contact and feeling are also unavoidable because of that. But once he attains enlightenment, there is no more tanha, together with the other links. When he dies, there is no more birth, no more new nāma-rūpa, etc, and no contact. But as long as he lives he will have contacts as a result having 6 senses, created by previous ignorance.

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:38 pm
by Srilankaputra
Volo wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:13 pm
Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:53 pm
Is it not accurate to say that an living Arahant has achieved passa-nirodha as per ud1.3 which I quoted above?
Contact is a coming together of object (e.g. form), sensitive organ (eye) and corresponding consciousness (eye consciousness). Therefore even Buddha had contacts.
yes, i agree with this
“Mendicants, for a fool hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has been produced. So there is the duality of this body and external name and form. Contact depends on this duality. When contacted through one or other of the six sense fields, the fool experiences pleasure and pain.

For an astute person hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has been produced. So there is the duality of this body and external name and form. Contact depends on this duality. When contacted through one or other of the six sense fields, the astute person experiences pleasure and pain.

What, then, is the difference between the foolish and the astute?”

“Our teachings are rooted in the Buddha. He is our guide and our refuge. Sir, may the Buddha himself please clarify the meaning of this. The mendicants will listen and remember it.”

“Well then, mendicants, listen and pay close attention, I will speak.”

“Yes, sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:

“For a fool hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has been produced. But the fool has not given up that ignorance or finished that craving. Why is that? The fool has not completed the spiritual journey for the complete ending of suffering. Therefore, when their body breaks up, the fool is reborn in another body. When reborn in another body, they’re not freed from rebirth, old age, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress. They’re not freed from suffering, I say.

For an astute person hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has been produced. But the astute person has given up that ignorance and finished that craving. Why is that? The astute person has completed the spiritual journey for the complete ending of suffering. Therefore, when their body breaks up, the astute person is not reborn in another body. Not being reborn in another body, they’re freed from rebirth, old age, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress. They’re freed from suffering, I say. This is the difference here between the foolish and the astute, that is, living the spiritual life.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.19/en/sujato

What i am trying to express is that 'Nirodha' has a broader meaning than final disappearance , vanishing, final ending.. ; which is what is suggested by the english word cessation.

Re: When contact ceases, sensual pleasures cease (Phassanirodho, bhikkhave, kāmanirodho)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:50 pm
by Srilankaputra
The word nibbana for example encompasses two meanings
“Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbāna-elements. What are the two? The Nibbāna-element with residue left and the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

“Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant … completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbāna-element with no residue left.

https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/ireland

I feel it's quite accurate to say(as per my current understanding) that an living Arahant has achieved passa-nirodha( actually all the links of DO). And an Anagamin has achieved kama-nirodha.