The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:56 am

Greetings,

:focus:

Reminder... this section is about Classical Theravada.

It is important to remember that discussion here is based upon the assumption that the Classical perspective is valid, and challenges to it are out of scope.

To the extent anyone wishes to present views that do not conform to the Classical Theravada perspective, please do so in a separate topic (outside the Classical section) and provide a link.

Also, please do not personally attack other members - play the ball, not the man.

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"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:04 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:56 am
Reminder... this section is about Classical Theravada.
Since the question is about "suttas", possibly the topic is in the inappropriate forum.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:07 am

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:04 am
Since the question is about "suttas", possibly the topic is in the inappropriate forum.
Or moreover, I highlighted earlier that such suttas do not exist, and unless anyone believes there are such suttas, there's not much more left to say, on this topic.

As for general discussion and debate on paticcasamuppada and its meaning, the General Theravada section is most appropriate for that.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:10 am

Viachh wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:47 am
Tell me, please, the names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives (past, present, future)?
Hi. The suttas below support the idea of consciousness entering into a mother's womb; where such consciousness even has mindfulness & clear comprehension. Importantly, the same terminology is found in DN 15, which Volo already posted. :smile:
Mindful and aware, the being intent on awakening passed away from the host of Joyful Gods and was conceived in his mother’s womb.’

sato sampajāno, ānanda, bodhisatto tusitā, kāyā cavitvā mātukucchiṃ okkamī’ti.

DN 14; DN 16; AN 4.127; AN 8.70; MN 123
someone (ekacco) is unaware when conceived in their mother’s womb, unaware as they remain there, and unaware as they emerge.

Idha, bhante, ekacco asampajāno mātukucchiṃ okkamati; asampajāno mātukucchismiṃ ṭhāti; asampajāno mātukucchimhā nikkhamati.

Furthermore, someone is aware when conceived in their mother’s womb, aware as they remain there, and aware as they emerge. This is the fourth kind of conception.

Puna caparaṃ, bhante, idhekacco sampajāno mātukucchiṃ okkamati; sampajāno mātukucchismiṃ ṭhāti; sampajāno mātukucchimhā nikkhamati.

DN 28; DN 33
If consciousness were not conceived in the mother’s womb, would name and form coagulate there?”

Viññāṇañca hi, ānanda, mātukucchismiṃ na okkamissatha, api nu kho nāmarūpaṃ mātukucchismiṃ samuccissathā”ti?

“If consciousness, after being conceived in the mother’s womb, were to be miscarried, would name and form be born into this state of existence?”

Viññāṇañca hi, ānanda, mātukucchismiṃ okkamitvā vokkamissatha, api nu kho nāmarūpaṃ itthattāya abhinibbattissathā”ti?

DN 15
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by Volo » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:21 am

Viachh wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:40 am
Volo wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:28 pm

We had a long discussion some time ago about similar issue.
Could you give a link to this thread. (I couldn’t find it myself.) You must have discussed this super-strangeness from all sides there.
I think there were even several topics, they were about the meaning of jāti, but the one I took part in started as something else and then turned into 3 lives in DO (it was long time ago). I cannot find it right now. But anyway I was mainly arguing there with DooDoot. I've already posted my main argument, and I think DooDoot will (or already did) formulate his arguments as well in the current topic.

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by Viachh » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:16 pm

How does Theravada explain the fact that for 45 years of preaching, the Buddha has not voiced a breakdown of all 12 nidanas into 3 lives in a separate sutta or in those where he had already explained all 12 nidanas? What was the purpose of the Buddha?

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by santa100 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:13 pm

Viachh wrote:How does Theravada explain the fact that for 45 years of preaching, the Buddha has not voiced a breakdown of all 12 nidanas into 3 lives in a separate sutta or in those where he had already explained all 12 nidanas? What was the purpose of the Buddha?
Maybe because it was obvious to disciples back then to see 3-life model as a given and no one would even remotely entertain the idea of the single-life model as the de facto interpretation, like some modern day armchair buddhologists do.

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by Volo » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:05 pm

Viachh wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:16 pm
How does Theravada explain the fact that for 45 years of preaching, the Buddha has not voiced a breakdown of all 12 nidanas into 3 lives in a separate sutta or in those where he had already explained all 12 nidanas? What was the purpose of the Buddha?
Maybe because it's obvious from the way he described the nidanas. If I say that my sleep in the night conditions my waking up in the morning, then obviously I'm taking at least about two days, whether I mention it or not. How would you otherwise explain why Buddha defines two nidanas as birth? Can there be two births within one life?

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by sentinel » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:01 pm

Ignorance doesn't necessarily mean past life , say if one is ignorant now , then sankhara arises and so on . This could just be cycle of one's suffering where the ignorance repeating at the six sense base .
This is similar for six sense base , where this illustration just describe at the sense door how one's craving arises and led to becoming then in succession with birth of the aggregates which at the end would result in suffering .
The whole thing of dependent origination is just to portray as a sample model where the link succeeding one after another phase by phase in a cyclic pattern that give rise to suffering . Not one life specifically , not limited to two life and not necessarily has to be three life model but continuously in cyclic series .
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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:00 pm

Paticcasamuppada describe not three lives, but the principle of conditionality, which encompasses many lives. Avijja, for example, applies to all lives from beginningless times, a pile of suffering refers to possible future lives. 3-9 nidanas are processes that occur during one of the lives.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by Volo » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:08 am

Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:00 pm
Paticcasamuppada describe not three lives, but the principle of conditionality, which encompasses many lives.
I'm (or the commentaries) not saying that lives go as 1-> 2 -> 3. Ignorance from quite distant past could have caused the present life nāma-rūpa. In the same way, the present craving, etc can condition some distant nāma-rūpa. So, it can be, say 1 -> 6-> 11. But there cannot be "many" lives, only three. And that's why:
3-9 nidanas are processes that occur during one of the lives.
Yes, this is difficult to argue. But also 1, 2 can belong only to one life, as well as 11, 12 also to one. Let's see:
Avijja, for example, applies to all lives from beginningless times, a pile of suffering refers to possible future lives.
Yes every life has ignorance and suffering. But only a certain ignorance and kamma (2nd link - sankhara) have caused present life nāma-rūpa. We had ignorance in all lives, and have kamma which can cause nāma-rūpa of hell being or of celestial being, etc, but we got human nāma-rūpa. Therefore ignorance is not a "general" ignorance from all samsara. It's a certain ignorance, which caused a certain kamma, causing new existence.

Let's now take suffering. Only current birth conditions current-life suffering. In a sense that if there would be no current birth there would be no suffering. Therefore links 11, 12 also belong to one life. If link birth would belong to life #1, but link suffering to life #2 it wouldn't be possible to stop suffering. You destroyed birth, entered Nibbāna, but births you had before would continue to condition new and new suffering.
Last edited by Volo on Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:01 am

Viachh wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:47 am
Tell me, please, the names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives (past, present, future)?
The DO suttas are somewhat ambiguous, and it's all a matter of interpretation. There is no consensus here, just a lot of competing theories - multiple lives, single life, multiple moments, etc.
I would be sceptical about anyone claiming to have the "right" answer, or anyone proselytising a particular interpretation.
I have found it more productive to focus on the clearly observable aspects of DO, eg how feeling leads to craving and aversion.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by sentinel » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:09 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:01 am
eg how feeling leads to craving and aversion.
Everything begins at the sense door . Starting with ignorance before arriving at craving .
:buddha1:

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:54 pm

sentinel wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:09 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:01 am
eg how feeling leads to craving and aversion.
Everything begins at the sense door . Starting with ignorance before arriving at craving .
Sure, but I deal with what I can actually notice in practice. Beyond that it becomes theory, belief, interpretation, view, speculation, etc.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:54 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:01 am
Viachh wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:47 am
Tell me, please, the names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives (past, present, future)?
The DO suttas are somewhat ambiguous, and it's all a matter of interpretation. There is no consensus here, just a lot of competing theories - multiple lives, single life, multiple moments, etc.
I would be sceptical about anyone claiming to have the "right" answer, or anyone proselytising a particular interpretation.
I have found it more productive to focus on the clearly observable aspects of DO, eg how feeling leads to craving and aversion.
Even within the orthodoxy of the Early Schools, there are various interpretations.
See, for example: viewtopic.php?t=30940#p451481
where Ven Analayo point out that some schools, including Theravada, have both multi-lives and one mind moment interpretations of dependent origination.
Analayo wrote:Three lives / one mind moment:
Paṭisambhidāmagga / Vibhaṅga
(Paṭis I 52,19) / (Vibh 144,2)
Jñānaprasthāna / *Mahāvibhāṣā
(T 1544 at T XXVI 921b17) / (T 1545 at T XXVII.118c7)
Here is the Vibhaṅga section:
What are unwholesome thoughts? At whatever time an unwholesome mind has arisen, connected with happiness, associated with the resort to (wrong) view, a form object, or a sound object, or a smell object, or a taste object, or a tangible object, or a thought object, or referring to whatever (thought), at that time with ignorance as condition there is a (volitional) process, with a (volitional) process as condition: consciousness, with consciousness as condition: mind, with mind as condition: the sixth sense sphere, with the sixth sense sphere as condition: contact, with contact as condition: feeling, with feeling as condition: craving, with craving as condition: attachment, with attachment as condition: continuation, with continuation as condition: birth, with birth as condition: ageing, death, and so there is an origination of this whole mass of suffering.
https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/anandajoti#pts-cs248
Edit: See next post for the relevant section from the Paṭisambhidāmagga (which is in the Sutta Pitaka) that references multiple lives.

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