The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

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Viachh
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The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by Viachh » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:47 am

Tell me, please, the names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives (past, present, future)?

santa100
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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by santa100 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:55 pm

Ven. Bodhi's comment from "Connected Discourses":
The three-life interpretation of dependent origination has sometimes been branded a commentarial invention on the ground that the sutta s themselves do not divide the terms up into different lifetimes. However, while it is true that we do not find in the suttas an explicit distribution of the factors into three lives, close examination of the variants on the standard formula lend strong support to the three-life interpretation. One example is SN 12:19, where ignorance and craving are first assigned jointly to a past life, giving rise to a new life lived in a conscious body with its six sense bases; and then, in the case of the fool (but not the wise man), ignorance and craving again function as joint causes in the present life to bring about renewed birth and suffering in the future life. A close examination of other variants in this samyutta would also establish that the series of terms extends over several lives.

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by Volo » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:28 pm

Viachh wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:47 am
Tell me, please, the names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives (past, present, future)?
We had a long discussion some time ago about similar issue. I'm not aware of any sutta, where Buddha would directly mention three lives, but imo it's quite logically comes from the analysis of 12 links, since there are two births: at the consciousness link and at birth. For example in Mahanidana (DN 15):
‘I have said: “Birth conditions ageing-and-death”, and this is the way that should be understood. If, Ananda, there were no birth at all, anywhere, of anybody or anything: of devas to the deva-state, of gandhabbas..., of yakkhas..., of ghosts... ,326 of humans..., of quadrupeds..., of birds..., of reptiles to the reptile state, if there were absolutely no birth at all of all these beings, then, with the absence of all birth, the cessation of birth, could ageing-and-death appear?’ ‘No, Lord.’ ׳Therefore, Ananda, just this is the root, the cause, the origin, the condition for ageing-and-death - namely birth.

...

‘I have said: “Consciousness conditions mind-and-body.” ... [63] If consciousness were not to come into the mother׳s womb, would mind-and-body develop there?’ ‘No, Lord.’

‘Or if consciousness, having entered the mother’s womb, were to be deflected, would mind-and-body come to birth in this life?’ ‘No, Lord.’ ‘And if the consciousness of such a tender young being, boy or girl, were thus cut off, would mind-and-body grow, develop and mature?’ ‘No, Lord.׳ ׳Therefore, Ananda, just this, namely consciousness, is the root, the cause, the origin, the condition of mind-and-body.
Since there are two births, what comes before the first one belongs to the past life, what comes after the second - to future, all in between - present.

Viachh
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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by Viachh » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:40 am

Volo wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:28 pm

We had a long discussion some time ago about similar issue.
Could you give a link to this thread. (I couldn’t find it myself.) You must have discussed this super-strangeness from all sides there.

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:48 am

Greetings Viachh,
Viachh wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:47 am
Tell me, please, the names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives (past, present, future)?
I assume you mean the 3rd and 6th rings (counting from the middle) in this diagram...

Image

If so, they do not exist.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:51 am

Volo wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:28 pm
If consciousness were not to come into the mother׳s womb, would mind-and-body develop there?’ ‘No, Lord.’
Hi. Since the above is only found in one sutta and since the above appears to contradict the mutual conditioning of consciousness & nama-rupa found in other suttas, it appears a questionable sutta. While the above appears to assert a mutual conditioning of consciousness & nama-rupa while in the mother's womb, it does not appear to account for mutual conditioning of consciousness & nama-rupa in respect to the disembodied consciousness that is said to "descend" from outer-space.

I think it is noteable this idea of "mother's womb" is only found in a certain genre of suttas (DN 14; DN 16; AN 4.127; AN 8.70; MN 123; DN 28; DN 33), such as the incredible MN 123, where the new born Gotama walks & talks at child birth; as follows:
‘Mindful and aware, the being intent on awakening passed away from the host of Joyful Gods and was conceived in his mother’s womb.’

‘sato sampajāno, ānanda, bodhisatto tusitā, kāyā cavitvā mātukucchiṃ okkamī’ti.

DN 14; DN 16; AN 4.127; AN 8.70; MN 123
someone (ekacco) is unaware when conceived in their mother’s womb, unaware as they remain there, and unaware as they emerge.

Idha, bhante, ekacco asampajāno mātukucchiṃ okkamati; asampajāno mātukucchismiṃ ṭhāti; asampajāno mātukucchimhā nikkhamati.

Furthermore, someone is aware :shock: when conceived in their mother’s womb, aware as they remain there, and aware as they emerge. This is the fourth kind of conception.

Puna caparaṃ, bhante, idhekacco sampajāno mātukucchiṃ okkamati; sampajāno mātukucchismiṃ ṭhāti; sampajāno mātukucchimhā nikkhamati.

DN 28; DN 33
:alien:
santa100 wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:55 pm
Ven. Bodhi's comment from "Connected Discourses":
The three-life interpretation of dependent origination has sometimes been branded a commentarial invention on the ground that the sutta s themselves do not divide the terms up into different lifetimes. However, while it is true that we do not find in the suttas an explicit distribution of the factors into three lives, close examination of the variants on the standard formula lend strong support to the three-life interpretation. One example is SN 12:19, where ignorance and craving are first assigned jointly to a past life, giving rise to a new life lived in a conscious body with its six sense bases; and then, in the case of the fool (but not the wise man), ignorance and craving again function as joint causes in the present life to bring about renewed birth and suffering in the future life. A close examination ;) of other variants in this samyutta would also establish that the series of terms extends over several lives.
Imaginative commentary by Bhikkhu Bodhi, it seems, who appeared to not interpret SN 12.19 in a logical manner, particularly the word "kayo". Nowhere does SN 12.19 appear to refer to a "conscious body". VBB's unproven assertions above appear to be unsubstantiated & hollow. SN 12.19 appears to say:
SN 12.19 wrote:Mendicants, for a fool hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this group/kāyo (of upadana khandha/aggregates) originates.

Avijjānīvaraṇassa, bhikkhave, bālassa taṇhāya sampayuttassa evamayaṃ kāyo samudāgato

So there is the duality of this [internal] group [of aggregates] and external minds and bodies. Contact depends on this duality. When contacted through one or other of the six sense fields, the fool experiences happiness and suffering.

Iti ayañceva kāyo bahiddhā ca nāmarūpaṃ, itthetaṃ dvayaṃ, dvayaṃ paṭicca phasso saḷevāyatanāni, yehi phuṭṭho bālo sukhadukkhaṃ
paṭisaṃvedayati etesaṃ vā aññatarena.
Its seems Bhikkhu Bodhi does not recall the aggregates are always changing, originating, manifesting & arising in different ways, in this life, as follows:
MN 149 wrote:When one abides inflamed by lust, fettered, infatuated, contemplating gratification, then the five aggregates affected by clinging are built up for oneself in the future; and one’s craving—which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this and that—increases. One’s bodily and mental troubles increase, one’s bodily and mental torments increase, one’s bodily and mental fevers increase, and one experiences bodily and mental suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/mn149/en/bodhi
Therefore, in believing "kaya" to be the same static unchanging "physical body" over a lifetime, rather than momentary changes in the quality of the grouping of the five aggregates, VBB appears to assert the following passage from SN 12.19 refers to reincarnation:
SN 12.19 wrote:“Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has originated. For the fool that ignorance has not been abandoned and that craving has not been utterly destroyed. For what reason? Because the fool has not lived the holy life for the complete destruction of suffering. Therefore, with the breakup of the body, the fool fares on to another body. Faring on to another body :roll: , he is not freed from birth, aging, and death; not freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair; not freed from suffering, I say.
The relevant Pali word above is kāyūpaga (attachment to a body), which is probably the 20th different word Bhikkhu Sujato has translated as "rebirth" or "reborn".

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:19 am, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by santa100 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:24 am

DooDoot wrote:Imaginative commentary by Bhikkhu Bodhi, it seems, who appeared unable to translate SN 12.19 in a logical manner, particularly the word "kayo". Nowhere does SN 12.19 appear to refer to a "conscious body". VBB's unproven assertions above appear to be unsubstantiated & hollow.
Ven. Bodhi is no arahant, but I'll have to be frank with you, it's the comments like the one you made above, especially using words like "imaginative" and "hollow" that really make people question your real intellectual capability, especially when compared against Ven. Bodhi's. Quite often is the case that you, yourself and your own mouth, not other people, who completely discredits your own credential. So, I'll have to say it again, the readers will decide who'd have more credentials when it comes to Dhamma interpretation based on both Ven. Bodhi's and your own track records.

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:27 am

santa100 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:24 am
Ven. Bodhi is no arahant, but I'll have to be frank with you, it's the comments like the one you made above, especially using words like "imaginative" and "hollow" that really make people question your real intellectual capability, especially when compared against Ven. Bodhi's.
My comments are supported therefore not hollow. You are welcome to reply to my sutta supports. :smile:
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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by santa100 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:33 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:27 am
santa100 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:24 am
Ven. Bodhi is no arahant, but I'll have to be frank with you, it's the comments like the one you made above, especially using words like "imaginative" and "hollow" that really make people question your real intellectual capability, especially when compared against Ven. Bodhi's.
My comments are supported therefore not hollow. You are welcome to reply to my sutta supports. :smile:
Your comments as usual, never have a quantity issue, but always lacking in quality. Ven. Bodhi simply proposes the interpretation of DO within the 3-life framework. I have never seen or heard any monk who proposes a sole and exclusive single-life DO model. So if you want to claim that, you're entitled to your own opinion.

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:36 am

santa100 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:33 am
Ven. Bodhi simply proposes the interpretation of DO within the 3-life framework.
I commented his proposition is hollow, unsubstantiated and relies on his own deliberate mistranslation of "kayo" as "conscious body", where he adds "conscious" ("vinnana"), which does not exist in the Pali. Kind regards :smile:

:strawman:
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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by santa100 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:41 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:36 am
santa100 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:33 am
Ven. Bodhi simply proposes the interpretation of DO within the 3-life framework.
I commented his proposition is hollow, unsubstantiated and relies on his own deliberate mistranslation of "kayo" as "conscious body", where he adds "conscious" ("vinnana"), which does not exist in the Pali. Kind regards :smile:

:strawman:
And in complete contrast to Ven. Bodhi's, your sole exclusive single-life model is solid and substantiated? As always, you simply throw together tons of sutta references in the hope to mask your own distorted view and wrong interpretations. No surprise there, one has to resort to quantity to make up for his quality problem.

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:46 am

santa100 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:41 am
And in complete contrast to Ven. Bodhi's
Bhikkhu Bodhi should know the word "rupa" is used for "body" in D.O. therefore why did he translate "kaya" as "body" when he knows "kaya" also refers to the five aggregates (e.g in "sakkaya")? :shrug:
santa100 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:41 am
your sole exclusive single-life model is solid and substantiated?
I personally think it is. Fully substantiated.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by santa100 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:49 am

DooDoot wrote:I personally think it is. Fully substantiated.
No problem there, due to the highlighted words.

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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by DooDoot » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:50 am

santa100 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:49 am
No problem there, due to the highlighted words.
You personally need to refute my posts rather than engage in constant Cultural Marxist personal attacks. You personally must show with sutta how my sutta interpretations are questionable or wrong. :reading: :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

santa100
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Re: The names of sutras in which 12 nidanas are sorted for 3 lives

Post by santa100 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:55 am

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:50 am
santa100 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:49 am
No problem there, due to the highlighted words.
You personally need to refute my posts rather than engage in constant Cultural Marxist personal attacks. You personally must show with sutta how my sutta interpretations are questionable or wrong. :reading: :smile:
You're the one who discredit Ven. Bodhi. You're the one who claimed that I'm engaging in Cultural Marxist personal attacks. It's you who'd need to provide proofs to back up your claims, not me. And no, citing tons of suttas reference to mask your distorted view is no proof, it's smoke and mirrors.
Last edited by santa100 on Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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