mindfulness and awareness

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auto
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mindfulness and awareness

Post by auto » Wed May 29, 2019 4:24 pm

sati and manasi kara

https://suttacentral.net/an11.8/en/sujato
Yet they would be aware?” manasi ca pana kareyyā”ti?
looks like awareness is mind in action.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.51/en/sujato
mindfulness, and situational awareness.
satiñca sampajaññañca kareyya.
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/k/kara
karaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Kara,[fr.kṛ] 1.(adj.) (-°) producing,causing,forming,making,doing,
it seem that its not you who is aware but it is minds quality. - when you are aware of yourself being aware. - manasikara

If you just are aware then you are identified with consciousness- sati?

auto
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Re: mindfulness and awareness

Post by auto » Wed May 29, 2019 4:41 pm

https://suttacentral.net/mn2/en/sujato
When they attend improperly in this way, one of the following six views arises in them and is taken as a genuine fact.
Tassa evaṃ ayoniso manasikaroto channaṃ diṭṭhīnaṃ aññatarā diṭṭhi uppajjati.
The view: ‘My self exists in an absolute sense.’ ‘Atthi me attā’ti vā assa saccato thetato diṭṭhi uppajjati;
The view: ‘My self does not exist in an absolute sense.’ ‘natthi me attā’ti vā assa saccato thetato diṭṭhi uppajjati;
The view: ‘I perceive the self with the self.’ ‘attanāva attānaṃ sañjānāmī’ti vā assa saccato thetato diṭṭhi uppajjati;
The view: ‘I perceive what is not-self with the self.’ ‘attanāva anattānaṃ sañjānāmī’ti vā assa saccato thetato diṭṭhi uppajjati;
The view: ‘I perceive the self with what is not-self.’ ‘anattanāva attānaṃ sañjānāmī’ti vā assa saccato thetato diṭṭhi uppajjati;
Or they have such a view: atha vā panassa evaṃ diṭṭhi hoti: ‘This self of mine is he who speaks and feels and experiences the results of good and bad deeds in all the different realms. This self is permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable, and will last forever and ever.’
yo me ayaṃ attā vado vedeyyo tatra tatra kalyāṇapāpakānaṃ kammānaṃ vipākaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti so kho pana me ayaṃ attā nicco dhuvo sassato avipariṇāmadhammo sassatisamaṃ tatheva ṭhassatī’ti.
This is called a misconception, the thicket of views, the desert of views, the trick of views, the evasiveness of views, the fetter of views. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, diṭṭhigataṃ diṭṭhigahanaṃ diṭṭhikantāraṃ diṭṭhivisūkaṃ diṭṭhivipphanditaṃ diṭṭhisaṃyojanaṃ.
the wrong views prolly arise from the point of being aware of being aware, for me it just is that view(others can have some other view); being aware of me being aware or me feeling.

correctly attend is
They properly attend: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’. So ‘idaṃ dukkhan’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhasamudayo’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodho’ti yoniso manasi karoti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yoniso manasi karoti.
And as they do so, they give up three fetters: Tassa evaṃ yoniso manasikaroto tīṇi saṃyojanāni pahīyanti—
identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances. sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso.
These are called the defilements that should be given up by seeing. Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, āsavā dassanā pahātabbā.
yoniso manasi karoti.

..i am aware because of suffering. Hence this is suffering. Awareness rises because of dukkha.

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Jerafreyr
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Re: mindfulness and awareness

Post by Jerafreyr » Wed May 29, 2019 11:01 pm

Dukkha does not necessarily mean suffering. That is just a modality of dukkha due to lack of wisdom. Ordinary people often rejoice in sleep because it provides much needed rest whereas arahants are free to rest without needing sleep. Consciousness might be dukkha but it doesn't necessarily have to be experienced as painful especially if the mind has been freed from craving.

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Sam Vara
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Re: mindfulness and awareness

Post by Sam Vara » Wed May 29, 2019 11:20 pm

Jerafreyr wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:01 pm
Dukkha does not necessarily mean suffering. That is just a modality of dukkha due to lack of wisdom. Ordinary people often rejoice in sleep because it provides much needed rest whereas arahants are free to rest without needing sleep. Consciousness might be dukkha but it doesn't necessarily have to be experienced as painful especially if the mind has been freed from craving.
That's an interesting angle which ties in with SN 45.165. Could you please say something about where you encountered the idea of modalities of Dukkha, or the reasoning which led you to it if it is your idea?

budo
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Re: mindfulness and awareness

Post by budo » Wed May 29, 2019 11:40 pm

"Energy flows where attention goes"..

I've heard a few Buddhists monks say by placing attention on the body you gain wisdom.

Placing attention on objects extracts knowledge out of them, hence the importance of the 4 satipatthana, especially the dhamma.

Placing attention on the mind also sends energy to it, which creates a cycle that grows stronger and stronger until your mind is bright.

To live mindfully is to keep your attention always on the 4 satipatthana at all times. Proper attention is really everything.

Samadhi is just non-distractability, the purity of proper attention and thus mindfulness.

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Jerafreyr
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Re: mindfulness and awareness

Post by Jerafreyr » Thu May 30, 2019 12:00 am

Sure:

“Sisters, suppose a skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher’s knife. Without damaging the inner mass of flesh and without damaging the outer hide, he would cut, sever, and carve away the inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments with the sharp butcher’s knife. Then having cut, severed, and carved all this away, he would remove the outer hide and cover the cow again with that same hide. Would he be speaking rightly if he were to say: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before’?”

“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because if that skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow…and cut, sever, and carve all that away, even though he covers the cow again with that same hide and says: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before,’ that cow would still be disjoined from that hide.”

An arahant is not connected to dukkha even when he feels sensation from the body much less a mental phenomena. He sheds contact like a snake sheds its skin so craving is not clung to; so the quality of dukkha changes. There's no ignorance within it. It still bears the three characteristics but these are no longer experienced as painful. Thus they don't mourn, begrudge, yearn, fear, etc... Kind of like the difference between a rough diamond ore and a well cut gem.

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Sam Vara
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Re: mindfulness and awareness

Post by Sam Vara » Thu May 30, 2019 6:54 am

Jerafreyr wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:00 am
Sure:

“Sisters, suppose a skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow and carve it up with a sharp butcher’s knife. Without damaging the inner mass of flesh and without damaging the outer hide, he would cut, sever, and carve away the inner tendons, sinews, and ligaments with the sharp butcher’s knife. Then having cut, severed, and carved all this away, he would remove the outer hide and cover the cow again with that same hide. Would he be speaking rightly if he were to say: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before’?”

“No, venerable sir. Why is that? Because if that skilled butcher or his apprentice were to kill a cow…and cut, sever, and carve all that away, even though he covers the cow again with that same hide and says: ‘This cow is joined to this hide just as it was before,’ that cow would still be disjoined from that hide.”

An arahant is not connected to dukkha even when he feels sensation from the body much less a mental phenomena. He sheds contact like a snake sheds its skin so craving is not clung to; so the quality of dukkha changes. There's no ignorance within it. It still bears the three characteristics but these are no longer experienced as painful. Thus they don't mourn, begrudge, yearn, fear, etc... Kind of like the difference between a rough diamond ore and a well cut gem.
Many thanks. Does that mean that you think dukkhanirodha only applies to the arahant with regards to the cessation of pain? That the complete cessation of dukkha (i.e. the other two forms) is a later stage?

polo
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Re: mindfulness and awareness

Post by polo » Thu May 30, 2019 1:15 pm

Jerafreyr wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:01 pm
Dukkha does not necessarily mean suffering. That is just a modality of dukkha due to lack of wisdom. Ordinary people often rejoice in sleep because it provides much needed rest whereas arahants are free to rest without needing sleep. Consciousness might be dukkha but it doesn't necessarily have to be experienced as painful especially if the mind has been freed from craving.
That's very interesting. Did you read these somewhere? Or some Swami point it out to you.
It does help to make me understand more about Dukkha. Thanks.

Srilankaputra
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Re: mindfulness and awareness

Post by Srilankaputra » Fri May 31, 2019 6:35 am

auto wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 4:24 pm
sati and manasi kara

https://suttacentral.net/an11.8/en/sujato
Yet they would be aware?” manasi ca pana kareyyā”ti?
looks like awareness is mind in action.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.51/en/sujato
mindfulness, and situational awareness.
satiñca sampajaññañca kareyya.
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/k/kara
karaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Kara,[fr.kṛ] 1.(adj.) (-°) producing,causing,forming,making,doing,
it seem that its not you who is aware but it is minds quality. - when you are aware of yourself being aware. - manasikara

If you just are aware then you are identified with consciousness- sati?
Hi auto,

I really like the words you used, but for me

'Mind in action' - manasikara

'when you are aware of being aware' - sati
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

auto
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Re: mindfulness and awareness

Post by auto » Fri May 31, 2019 2:21 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 6:35 am
Hi auto,

I really like the words you used, but for me

'Mind in action' - manasikara

'when you are aware of being aware' - sati
idk you may be right but

https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato
And what does that consciousness know? Tena ca viññāṇena kiṃ vijānāti? It knows ‘pleasure’ and ‘pain’ and ‘neutral’. ‘Sukhan’tipi vijānāti, ‘dukkhan’tipi vijānāti, ‘adukkhamasukhan’tipi vijānāti.
Pleasant feeling arises dependent on a contact to be experienced as pleasant. Sukhavedaniyaṃ, bhikkhu, phassaṃ paṭicca uppajjati sukhā vedanā.
Consciousness doesn't experience, it is person who experiences. Consciousness is what knows pleasure, pain and neutral.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato
“These are the eighteen mental preoccupations”: this is the Dhamma I’ve taught …’ Ime aṭṭhārasa manopavicārāti, bhikkhave, mayā dhammo desito aniggahito asaṅkiliṭṭho anupavajjo appaṭikuṭṭho samaṇehi brāhmaṇehi viññūhīti.

Seeing a sight with the eye, one is preoccupied with a sight that’s a basis for happiness or sadness or equanimity. Cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṃ rūpaṃ upavicarati domanassaṭṭhāniyaṃ rūpaṃ upavicarati upekkhāṭṭhāniyaṃ rūpaṃ upavicarati,
..
Becoming conscious of a thought with the mind, one is preoccupied with a thought that’s a basis for happiness or sadness or equanimity. manasā dhammaṃ viññāya somanassaṭṭhāniyaṃ dhammaṃ upavicarati domanassaṭṭhāniyaṃ dhammaṃ upavicarati upekkhāṭṭhāniyaṃ dhammaṃ upavicarati.
Mental preoccupation. Thought, sight, flavor, smell, touch are mana.

One is seeing the sight with the mind, together. Manopavicārāti is the one word term for it.

https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato
Supported by the six elements, an embryo is conceived. Channaṃ, bhikkhave, dhātūnaṃ upādāya gabbhassāvakkanti hoti;
https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/sujato
‘This person has six elements.’ ‘Cha dhāturo ayaṃ, bhikkhu, puriso’ti—
When it is conceived, there are name and form. Name and form are conditions for the six sense fields. The six sense fields are conditions for contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. okkantiyā sati nāmarūpaṃ, nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṃ, saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso, phassapaccayā vedanā.
okkantiyā sati nāmarūpaṃ. Sati is before manopavicārāti step.

It’s for one who feels that I declare: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’. Vediyamānassa kho panāhaṃ, bhikkhave, idaṃ dukkhanti paññapemi, ayaṃ dukkhasamudayoti paññapemi, ayaṃ dukkhanirodhoti paññapemi, ayaṃ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadāti paññapemi.

i think the being aware of being aware is neither of sati nor manasikara. Could it be samadhi instead?

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