Where in the vinaya is the prohibition against monks asking for gifts/offerings?

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dylanj
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Where in the vinaya is the prohibition against monks asking for gifts/offerings?

Post by dylanj » Fri May 03, 2019 9:52 am

i.e. asking specifically for something they want without having been approached & asked what they need by a layperson.
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Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


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Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

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Re: Where in the vinaya is the prohibition against monks asking for gifts/offerings?

Post by dylanj » Sat May 04, 2019 8:45 am

bump
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

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Volo
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Re: Where in the vinaya is the prohibition against monks asking for gifts/offerings?

Post by Volo » Sat May 04, 2019 10:09 am

I hope Ven Dhammanando or somebody of bhikkhus will give a more qualified answer, but for the time being, I will post what I found:

I think there are offenses for asking for particular items from non-relative or without being invited (like robe material, special food, etc).

But in general asking for something without invitation is looked down in Vinaya. For example, Buddha tells a story about a monk who was annoyed by the noise of birds, and says:
“I said: ‘Monk, do you want this flock of birds not to return?’
“‘I want, lord,24 this flock of birds not to return.’
“I said: ‘Then you, monk, going there, and penetrating this thicket three times in the first watch of the night must utter this sound: ‘Listen to me, good sirs, whatever birds have come to roost in this thicket, I want a feather. Good sirs, give me one feather ‘at a time.’ Three times in the middle watch … three times in the last watch … at a time.’ Then, monks, this monk having gone there, and having penetrated the thicket, uttered this sound three times … in the middle watch of the night … in the last watch of the night … ‘at a time.’ Then, monks, that flock of birds said: ‘The monk begs for a feather, the monk wants a feather,’ and they departed from that thicket, and after they were gone, they did not come back again. Begging, monks, from these animals and living creatures will become hateful, hinting (will become) hateful, how much more then from men?

Bu-Ss.6.1.5 “Once upon a time, monks, the father of Raṭṭhapāla, the noble youth, addressed these verses to Raṭṭhapāla, the noble youth:
“‘Tho’ I do not know them, Raṭṭhāpāla, the many-folk,
These, meeting me, beg—why do you not beg of me?’
‘The beggar is not liked, the not-giver to beggar is not liked,25
Therefore I do not beg of you, do not be angry with me.’26
BD.1.253 “Monks, if Raṭṭhapāla, the noble youth, can speak thus to his own father, how much more then ean (any) person to (any other) person?
Bu-Ss.6.1.6 “Monks, it is difficult for householders to collect possessions Vin.3.149 , and difficult to protect their stores; how can you, foolish men, dwell intent on begging, intent on asking by hinting (for something) from among these possessions which are difficult to collect, and from among these stores which are difficult to protect, saying: ‘Give a man, give a servant, give an ox, give a wagon, give a knife, give a hatchet, give an axe, give a spade, give a chisel, give a creeper, give bamboo, give muñja-grass, give coarse grass, give tiṇa-grass, give clay.’
Ven Thanissaro in BMC says:
On the other hand, telling an unrelated lay person to give something is a form of begging, which carries a dukkaṭa unless the lay person is related or has invited one to ask in the first place.
But he doesn't give exact reference for that.

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Re: Where in the vinaya is the prohibition against monks asking for gifts/offerings?

Post by dylanj » Sun May 12, 2019 9:53 pm

Volo wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:09 am
I hope Ven Dhammanando or somebody of bhikkhus will give a more qualified answer, but for the time being, I will post what I found:

I think there are offenses for asking for particular items from non-relative or without being invited (like robe material, special food, etc).

But in general asking for something without invitation is looked down in Vinaya. For example, Buddha tells a story about a monk who was annoyed by the noise of birds, and says:
“I said: ‘Monk, do you want this flock of birds not to return?’
“‘I want, lord,24 this flock of birds not to return.’
“I said: ‘Then you, monk, going there, and penetrating this thicket three times in the first watch of the night must utter this sound: ‘Listen to me, good sirs, whatever birds have come to roost in this thicket, I want a feather. Good sirs, give me one feather ‘at a time.’ Three times in the middle watch … three times in the last watch … at a time.’ Then, monks, this monk having gone there, and having penetrated the thicket, uttered this sound three times … in the middle watch of the night … in the last watch of the night … ‘at a time.’ Then, monks, that flock of birds said: ‘The monk begs for a feather, the monk wants a feather,’ and they departed from that thicket, and after they were gone, they did not come back again. Begging, monks, from these animals and living creatures will become hateful, hinting (will become) hateful, how much more then from men?

Bu-Ss.6.1.5 “Once upon a time, monks, the father of Raṭṭhapāla, the noble youth, addressed these verses to Raṭṭhapāla, the noble youth:
“‘Tho’ I do not know them, Raṭṭhāpāla, the many-folk,
These, meeting me, beg—why do you not beg of me?’
‘The beggar is not liked, the not-giver to beggar is not liked,25
Therefore I do not beg of you, do not be angry with me.’26
BD.1.253 “Monks, if Raṭṭhapāla, the noble youth, can speak thus to his own father, how much more then ean (any) person to (any other) person?
Bu-Ss.6.1.6 “Monks, it is difficult for householders to collect possessions Vin.3.149 , and difficult to protect their stores; how can you, foolish men, dwell intent on begging, intent on asking by hinting (for something) from among these possessions which are difficult to collect, and from among these stores which are difficult to protect, saying: ‘Give a man, give a servant, give an ox, give a wagon, give a knife, give a hatchet, give an axe, give a spade, give a chisel, give a creeper, give bamboo, give muñja-grass, give coarse grass, give tiṇa-grass, give clay.’
Ven Thanissaro in BMC says:
On the other hand, telling an unrelated lay person to give something is a form of begging, which carries a dukkaṭa unless the lay person is related or has invited one to ask in the first place.
But he doesn't give exact reference for that.
thanks
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

bhante dhamma
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Re: Where in the vinaya is the prohibition against monks asking for gifts/offerings?

Post by bhante dhamma » Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:14 am

So hypothetically speaking, what would you -as laymen- think is the best course of action -for a monastic- if they are in a situation where there is need of some requisite and neither of those conditions are present?

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Volo
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Re: Where in the vinaya is the prohibition against monks asking for gifts/offerings?

Post by Volo » Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:22 am

bhante dhamma wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:14 am
So hypothetically speaking, what would you -as laymen- think is the best course of action -for a monastic- if they are in a situation where there is need of some requisite and neither of those conditions are present?
Firstly, a bhikkhu can always directly ask from his relatives, even if they haven't officially invited him to request. But if it is not possible I (if I would be a bhikkhu) would tell to a lay man whom I know, about my problem, but so that he doesn't perceive it as a request, but as sharing of information. Especially Asian lay people (and some westerners as well) would understand and try to help. But if they don't understand (or pretend so),then okay - there are things, which should be endured, as the Buddha said.

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