"In this very life"

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Sam Vara
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"In this very life"

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:09 pm

The term "in this very life" is of course the title of Sayadaw U Pandita's famous manual, but does it come from a sutta? I imagine it's a standard term that is normally translated differently, but I can't place it. Can anyone help please?

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Nicolas
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Re: "In this very life"

Post by Nicolas » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:12 pm

Sandiṭṭhika: visible; belonging to, of advantage to, this life, actual. (PTS dictionary)

https://suttacentral.net/search?query=sandiṭṭhika

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Sam Vara
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Re: "In this very life"

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:18 pm

Thanks, Nicolas!
:anjali:

Does the book say that, or is that the closest term you can think of?

(Apologies, mods! You might want to move this...)

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Re: "In this very life"

Post by Nicolas » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:34 pm

I don't know if the book says that (upon quick look at an online PDF, it doesn't look like it). I just remembered the term from some suttas and looked up the original Pali in those suttas.

I also found this:
Ven. Brahmali wrote: The Pali word used in MN13 is sandiṭṭhiko, and throughout the suttas, including in MN13, it is juxtaposed with samparāyiko, which clearly means "in a future life". Ven. Bodhi was once asked why he didn't translate sandiṭṭhiko as "in the present life" and essentially replied that this translation was already reserved for the phrase diṭṭha dhamma (lit. "visible phenomena"). This is the kind of problem translators have to deal with.
(So it looks like diṭṭha dhamma also fits the bill.)

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Sam Vara
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Re: "In this very life"

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:53 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:34 pm
...
Many thanks, Nicolas. Much appreciated!

:anjali:

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bodom
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Re: "In this very life"

Post by bodom » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:58 pm

AN 9.46: In This Very Life

“Reverend, they speak of ‘a teaching visible in this very life’. In what way did the Buddha speak of a teaching visible in this very life?”

“First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption. To this extent the Buddha spoke of the teaching visible in this very life in a qualified sense. …

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. To this extent the Buddha spoke of the teaching visible in this very life in a definitive sense.”

Ud 7.5 PTS: Ud 76

Thus it has been heard by me. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Sāvatthi in the Jeta Forest in the private park owned by Anāthapiṇḍika.

Also at that time, where the Blessed One was, there Venerable Bhaddiya the Dwarf approached, close behind many monks.

The Blessed One saw Venerable Bhaddiya the Dwarf, even from afar, coming close behind many monks: of bad complexion, of bad appearance, dwarfish, of such a form as to be despised by most of the monks.[1] Having seen him, he addressed the monks:

"Monks, do you see that monk, even from afar, coming close behind many monks: of bad complexion, of bad appearance, dwarfish, of such a form as to be despised by most of the monks?"

"Just so, Venerable Sir."

"Monks, that monk is of great power, of great eminence. There is no well-gained attainment that has not already been attained by that monk. For that benefit, for which sons of good lineage rightly go forth from home into homelessness, that ultimate conclusion of the holy life, even in this very life, by himself, having seen with his own eyes the higher knowledge, and having attained, he abides.'

AN 6.47 Visible in This Very Life

And then the wanderer Moliyasīvaka went up to the Buddha, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side and said to the Buddha:

“Sir, they speak of ‘a teaching visible in this very life’. In what way is the teaching visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves?”

“Well then, Sīvaka, I’ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, Sīvaka? When there’s greed in you, do you understand ‘I have greed in me’? And when there’s no greed in you, do you understand ‘I have no greed in me’?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Since you know this, this is how the teaching is visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.

What do you think, Sīvaka? When there’s hate … delusion … greedy thoughts … hateful thoughts … When there are delusional thoughts in you, do you understand ‘I have delusional thoughts in me’? And when there are no delusional thoughts in you, do you understand ‘I have no delusional thoughts in me’?”

“Yes, sir.”

“Since you know this, this is how the teaching is visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.”

“Excellent, sir! Excellent! From this day forth, may the Buddha remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”
:anjali:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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Re: "In this very life"

Post by bodom » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:19 pm

AN 3.54

: A Wanderer Then a brahmin wanderer went up to the Buddha … Seated to one side he said to the Buddha:“Master Gotama, they speak of ‘a teaching visible in this very life’. In what way is the teaching visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves?”“A greedy person, overcome by greed, intends to hurt themselves, hurt others, and hurt both. They experience mental pain and sadness. When greed has been given up, they don’t intend to hurt themselves, hurt others, and hurt both. They don’t experience mental pain and sadness.A greedy person does bad things by way of body, speech, and mind. When greed has been given up, they don’t do bad things by way of body, speech, and mind.

A greedy person doesn’t truly understand what’s for their own good, the good of another, or the good of both. When greed has been given up, they truly understand what’s for their own good, the good of another, or the good of both. This is how the teaching is visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.A hateful person … A deluded person, overcome by delusion, intends to hurt themselves, hurt others, and hurt both. They experience mental pain and sadness. When delusion has been given up, they don’t intend to hurt themselves, hurt others, and hurt both. They don’t experience mental pain and sadness.A deluded person does bad things by way of body, speech, and mind. When delusion has been given up, they don’t do bad things by way of body, speech, and mind.A deluded person doesn’t truly understand what’s for their own good, the good of another, or the good of both. When delusion has been given up, they truly understand what’s for their own good, the good of another, or the good of both. This, too, is how the teaching is visible in this very life, immediately effective, inviting inspection, relevant, so that sensible people can know it for themselves.”“Excellent, Master Gotama! Excellent! … From this day forth, may Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”
AN 2.5: Learned for Myself

“Mendicants, I have learned these two things for myself— to never be content with skillful qualities, and to never stop trying. I never stopped trying, thinking: ‘Gladly, let only skin, sinews, and bones remain! Let the flesh and blood waste away in my body! I will not stop trying until I have achieved what is possible by manly strength, energy, and vigor.’ It was by diligence that I achieved awakening, and by diligence that I achieved the supreme sanctuary. If you too never stop trying, thinking: ‘Gladly, let only skin, sinews, and bones remain! Let the flesh and blood waste away in my body! I will not stop trying until I have achieved what is possible by manly strength, energy, and vigor.’ You will soon realize the supreme culmination of the spiritual path in this very life. You will live having achieved with your own insight the goal for which people from good families rightly go forth from the lay life to homelessness. So you should train like this: ‘We will never stop trying, thinking:

“Gladly, let only skin, sinews, and bones remain! Let the flesh and blood waste away in my body! I will not stop trying until I have achieved what is possible by manly strength, energy, and vigor.”’ That’s how you should train.”
:anjali:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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Sam Vara
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Re: "In this very life"

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:23 pm

Thanks bodom. That's definitely "sanditthiko"!

:anjali:

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Re: "In this very life"

Post by DooDoot » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:33 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:34 pm
sandiṭṭhiko, and throughout the suttas, including in MN13, it is juxtaposed with samparāyiko, which clearly means "in a future life". Ven. Bodhi was once asked why he didn't translate sandiṭṭhiko as "in the present life" and essentially replied that this translation was already reserved for the phrase diṭṭha dhamma (lit. "visible phenomena"). This is the kind of problem translators have to deal with.
I am inclined to agree with Bhikkhu Bodhi, above, about "sandiṭṭhiko" vs "diṭṭha dhamma" . Another word is "idheva" however it appears to simply mean "here", when its usage is examined:
Iti 34 wrote:But a mindful and discerning meditator,
Ardent, scrupulous, and diligent,
Having severed the fetters of birth and decay,
Can attain for himself right here and now
Enlightenment which is supreme.

Yo ca satimā nipako jhāyī,
Ātāpī ottāpī ca appamatto;
Saṃyojanaṃ
jātijarāya chetvā,
Idheva sambodhimanuttaraṃ phuse

https://suttacentral.net/iti34/en/ireland
AN 4.241 wrote:Only here is there a true ascetic, here a second ascetic, here a third ascetic, and here a fourth ascetic.

Idheva, bhikkhave, paṭhamo samaṇo, idha dutiyo samaṇo, idha tatiyo samaṇo, idha catuttho samaṇo;

https://suttacentral.net/an4.241/en/sujato
:candle:
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:09 pm
The term "in this very life" is of course the title of Sayadaw U Pandita's famous manual, but does it come from a sutta? I imagine it's a standard term that is normally translated differently, but I can't place it. Can anyone help please?
I would guess, in the above context, the relevant Pali is "diṭṭheva dhamme", per the stock phrase below:
MN 82 wrote:Then Venerable Raṭṭhapāla, living alone, withdrawn, diligent, keen, and resolute, soon realized the supreme end of the spiritual path in this very life. He lived having achieved with his own insight the goal for which people from good families rightly go forth from the lay life to homelessness.

Atha kho āyasmā raṭṭhapālo eko vūpakaṭṭho appamatto ātāpī pahitatto viharanto nacirasseva—yassatthāya kulaputtā sammadeva agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajanti, tadanuttaraṃ— brahmacariyapariyosānaṃ diṭṭheva dhamme sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja vihāsi.

He understood: “Rebirth is ended; the spiritual journey has been completed; what had to be done has been done; there is no return to any state of existence.”

“Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā”ti abbhaññāsi.

https://suttacentral.net/mn82/en/sujato
.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sam Vara
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Re: "In this very life"

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:01 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:33 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:09 pm
The term "in this very life" is of course the title of Sayadaw U Pandita's famous manual, but does it come from a sutta? I imagine it's a standard term that is normally translated differently, but I can't place it. Can anyone help please?
I would guess, in the above context, the relevant Pali is "diṭṭheva dhamme", per the stock phrase below:
MN 82 wrote:Then Venerable Raṭṭhapāla, living alone, withdrawn, diligent, keen, and resolute, soon realized the supreme end of the spiritual path in this very life. He lived having achieved with his own insight the goal for which people from good families rightly go forth from the lay life to homelessness.

Atha kho āyasmā raṭṭhapālo eko vūpakaṭṭho appamatto ātāpī pahitatto viharanto nacirasseva—yassatthāya kulaputtā sammadeva agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajanti, tadanuttaraṃ— brahmacariyapariyosānaṃ diṭṭheva dhamme sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja vihāsi.

He understood: “Rebirth is ended; the spiritual journey has been completed; what had to be done has been done; there is no return to any state of existence.”

“Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā”ti abbhaññāsi.

https://suttacentral.net/mn82/en/sujato
Thank you very much.

:anjali:

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Re: "In this very life"

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:21 pm

Of interest, sanditthiko is sometimes translated as "apparent here and now", in English chanting at Abhayagiri.

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