Is stream entry detaching only from body ?

[thang]

Some meditation masters say that the Sakkaya Ditthi is the view of 'body is mine'.
But the suttas say that Sakkaya Ditthi is Panca Upadana Khanda (including mind).
Then those masters say that detching from the whole Panca Khanda is done by Arahat Magga and detaching from the body is done as the fist step by the Sotapatti Magga.
Yet some other masters say that the Sotapatti is detching from the whole Panca Khanda but to a certain degree and not fully.

Do you know what is the correct explanation?

[cappuccino]

whatever arises, will cease

[JamesTheGiant]

Some meditation masters say that the Sakkaya Ditthi is the view of 'body is mine'.
But the suttas say that Sakkaya Ditthi is Panca Upadana Khanda (including mind).

This is a sure sign those meditation masters are not sotapanna.
All self view is given up at stream entry. The self blows out like a candle-flame, but then it re-ignites. The sense of self comes back after the stream entry experience. But the sotapanna can never again believe that anything is self.

Sorry I can't give references. I know I'm supposed to in the Classical Theravada sub-forum. I won't be upset if this post is deleted because of that.

[DooDoot]

Some meditation masters say that the Sakkaya Ditthi is the view of 'body is mine'.

The word "kaya" does not necessarily mean "the physical body".

But the suttas say that Sakkaya Ditthi is Panca Upadana Khanda (including mind).

It seems you answered your own question.

[ToVincent]

Some meditation masters say that the Sakkaya Ditthi is the view of 'body is mine'.

Sakkāyadiṭṭhi is the view that the khandhas are mine.

SN 41.3
SN 22.82
MN 109
All of them with parallels, are defining sakkāyadiṭṭhi as the khandhas, not the appropriated (clinging) khandhas.

The khandhas are in Namarupa nidāna (going through arrow 1).
The appropriated (clinging) khandhas are in satta (red) - (going through arrow 1 + sense consciousness, etc.).
https://justpaste.it/img/65c593f280b5a7 ... 70959c.png

Read at least SN 41.3 extract.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
.
.

[thang]

Thank you all for your explanations and references.
It seems that the stream entry cannot be detaching only from body.

“Venerable sir, how does identity view come to be?”

“Here, bhikkhu, the uninstructed worldling, who is not a seer of the noble ones and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, who is not a seer of superior persons and is unskilled and undisciplined in their Dhamma, regards form as self, or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form. He regards feeling as self … perception as self … volitional formations as self … consciousness as self, or self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That is how identity view comes to be.”
[SN 22.82]

[sentinel]

Sakkāyadiṭṭhi is the view that the khandhas are mine.

Agreed

[Ontheway]

Dhammasaṅgaṇī - Nikkhepakaṇḍaṃ

1007.Tattha katamā sakkāyadiṭṭhi? Idha assutavā puthujjano ariyānaṃ adassāvī ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme avinīto sappurisānaṃ adassāvī sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme avinīto:

rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā rūpaṃ, rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.

Vedanaṃ attato samanupassati, vedanāvantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā vedanaṃ, vedanāya vā attānaṃ.

Saññaṃ attato samanupassati, saññāvantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā saññaṃ, saññāya vā attānaṃ.

Saṅkhāre attato samanupassati, saṅkhāravantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā saṅkhāre, saṅkhāresu vā attānaṃ.

Viññāṇaṃ attato samanupassati, viññāṇavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.

Yā evarūpā diṭṭhi diṭṭhigataṃ diṭṭhigahanaṃ diṭṭhikantāro diṭṭhivisūkāyikaṃ diṭṭhivipphanditaṃ diṭṭhisaṃyojanaṃ gāho paṭiggāho abhiniveso parāmāso kummaggo micchāpatho micchattaṃ titthāyatanaṃ vipariyāsaggāho – ayaṃ vuccati sakkāyadiṭṭhi.

ENG:
What is the sakkāyadiṭṭhi?
Here an uninformed worldling, not in the habit of associating with Noble Ones, unskilled in the Teachings of the Noble Ones, untrained in the Teachings of the Noble Ones, not in the habit of associating with truthful persons, unskilled in the Teachings of the truthful persons, untrained in the Teachings of the truthful persons; perceives:

Rūpa as Self; the rest of the Aggregates as Self having Rūpa; Rūpa existing in Self; Self existing in Rūpa.

Vedanā as Self; the rest of the Aggregates as Self having Vedanā; Vedanā existing in Self; Self existing in Vedanā.

Saññā as Self; the rest of the Aggregates as Self having Saññā; Saññā existing in Self; Self existing in Saññā.

Saṅkhāra as Self; the rest of the Aggregates as Self having Saṅkhāra; Saṅkhāra existing in Self; Self existing in Saṅkhāra.

Viññāṇa as Self; the rest of the Aggregates as Self having Viññāṇa; Viññāṇa existing in Self; Self existing in Viññāṇa.

There are such (wrong) view, wrong view of that nature, the thicket of views, the wilderness of view, the thorny spike of view, the inconsistency of view, the fetter of view, obsession of view, persistent obsession of view, adherence to view, contagion (which is the wrong view), detestable path, wrong course, wrongness, base of wrong view, tenacity of view – this is sakkāyadiṭṭhi.

[pegembara]

No. Or else many would already be stream enterers.

"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

The mind aka Mara is living you! Know your mind!

Then Mara the Evil One, wanting to arouse fear, horripilation, & terror in her, wanting to make her fall away from concentration, approached her & addressed her in verse:


By whom was this living being created?
Where is the living being's maker?
Where has the living being originated?
Where does the living being
cease?
Then the thought occurred to Vajira the nun: "Now who has recited this verse — a human being or a non-human one?" Then it occurred to her: "This is Mara the Evil One, who has recited this verse wanting to arouse fear, horripilation, & terror in me, wanting to make me fall away from concentration."

Then, having understood that "This is Mara the Evil One," she replied to him in verses:


What? Do you assume a 'living being,' Mara?
Do you take a position?
This is purely a pile of fabrications.
Here no living being
can be pinned down.

Just as when, with an assemblage of parts,
there's the word,
chariot,
even so when aggregates are present,
there's the convention of
living being.

For only stress is what comes to be;
stress, what remains & falls away.
Nothing but stress comes to be.
Nothing ceases but stress.
Then Mara the Evil One — sad & dejected at realizing, "Vajira the nun knows me" — vanished right there.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[Jack19990101]

Not quite so - Only until anagami, one is detached from body & form.

the 5 lower fetters are all body attachment or its variations.
It is not possible to detached from body and still have ill-will and sensual pleasure.

Stream winner no longer explicitly believe identify view. Subconscious attachment remains. As it is subconscious, it means those attachment is being covered by avijja, un-detected.

[Maarten]

Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

Forms... Sounds ... Aromas... Flavors... Tactile sensations... Ideas are inconstant, changeable, alterable.

Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

Eye-contact...Ear-contact...Nose-contact...Tongue-contact...Body-contact... Intellect-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations...Perception of ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

The earth property... The liquid property... The fire property... The wind property... The space property... The consciousness property is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

Form... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

......

One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.

— SN 25.1-10