Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

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zan
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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by zan » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:21 pm

alfa wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:03 am
Pondera wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:12 am
alfa wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:41 pm


How is this even possible? :shrug:
How is what possible? That his faculties are exceptionally clear?

There is the eye faculty; the eye object; and eye consciousness. When eye consciousness ceases - faculty and object remain; but are no longer in contact.

Ie. the faculties remain for one who has entered the cessation of feeling and perception - but there is no contact with sense media.

Ie. the “mind” faculty remains bright and unsullied by “mind” objects. Ie. one experiences Nibbana with the mind - apart from all feeling and perception. As you know, Nibbāna has been declared a perception by the Buddha before.

Or is your question something else? I do not understand your question in that case.

Edit: as far as I know, Sāriputta declared Nibbana a perception. Not the Buddha, necessarily.
Thanks, that explains a lot. But does contact (between faculty and object) create consciousness, or is it the other way around?
In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact.
-SN 12.45
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:22 pm

Going Against the Flow
by
Upasika Kee Nanayon
translated from the Thai by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... eflow.html
Think of it like this: You're a huge playhouse showing a true-to-life drama whose hero, heroine, and villains — which are conventional suppositions — are entirely within you. If you strip away all conventional suppositions and designations, what you have left is nothing but Dhamma: freedom, emptiness. And simply being free and empty of any sense of self is enough to bring the whole show to an end.
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  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

zan
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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by zan » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:06 pm

saṃyutta nikāya 35

connected discourses on the six sense bases

93. The Dyad (2)
“Bhikkhus, consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad. And how, bhikkhus, does consciousness come to be in dependence on a dyad? In dependence on the eye and forms there arises eye-consciousness. The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise.

“Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-consciousness is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, bhikkhus, eye-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent?

“The meeting, the encounter, the concurrence of these three things is called eye-contact. Eye-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of eye-contact is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, bhikkhus, eye-contact has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent?

“Contacted, bhikkhus, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise.

“In dependence on the ear and sounds there arises ear-consciousness … … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena there arises mind-consciousness. The mind is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise; mental phenomena are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Thus this dyad is moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise.

“Mind-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of mind-consciousness is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, bhikkhus, mind-consciousness has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent?

“The meeting, the encounter, the concurrence of these three things is called mind-contact. Mind-contact too is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. The cause and condition for the arising of mind-contact is also impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. When, bhikkhus, mind-contact has arisen in dependence on a condition that is impermanent, how could it be permanent?

“Contacted, bhikkhus, one feels, contacted one intends, contacted one perceives. Thus these things too are moving and tottering, impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise.

“It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that consciousness comes to be in dependence on a dyad.”SN 35.93
The First Discourse about Nibbāna
Thus I heard: At one time the Gracious One was dwelling near Sāvatthī, in Jeta’s Wood, at Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then at that time the Gracious One was instructing, rousing, enthusing, and cheering the monks with a Dhamma talk connected with Emancipation. Those monks, after making it their goal, applying their minds, considering it with all their mind, were listening to Dhamma with an attentive ear.

Then the Gracious One, having understood the significance of it, on that occasion uttered this exalted utterance:

“There is that sphere, monks, where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air, no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness, no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun. There, monks, I say there is surely no coming, no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,—just this is the end of suffering.”
Ud 8.1
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

auto
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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by auto » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:59 am

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.72/en/sujato
“Mendicants, when the perception of suffering in impermanence is developed and cultivated it’s very fruitful and beneficial. …”
“Anicce dukkhasaññā, bhikkhave … pe … chaṭṭhaṃ.
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.71/en/sujato
“Mendicants, when the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated it’s very fruitful and beneficial. …”
“Aniccasaññā, bhikkhave … pe … pañcamaṃ.
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.70/en/sujato
“Mendicants, when the perception of dissatisfaction with the whole world is developed and cultivated it’s very fruitful and beneficial. …”
“Sabbaloke anabhiratisaññā, bhikkhave … pe … catutthaṃ.
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.58/en/sujato
“Mendicants, when the perception of a worm-infested corpse is developed and cultivated it’s very fruitful and beneficial. …”
“Puḷavakasaññā, bhikkhave, bhāvitā … pe … dutiyaṃ.
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.59/en/sujato
“Mendicants, when the perception of a livid corpse is developed and cultivated it’s very fruitful and beneficial. …”
“Vinīlakasaññā, bhikkhave … pe … tatiyaṃ.
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.75/en/sujato
“Mendicants, when the perception of dispassion is developed and cultivated it’s very fruitful and beneficial. …”
“Virāgasaññā, bhikkhave … pe … navamaṃ.
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.73/en/sujato
“Mendicants, when the perception of not-self in suffering is developed and cultivated it’s very fruitful and beneficial. …”
“Dukkhe anattasaññā, bhikkhave … pe … sattamaṃ.
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.76/en/sujato
“Mendicants, when the perception of cessation is developed and cultivated it’s very fruitful and beneficial.
“Nirodhasaññā, bhikkhave, bhāvitā bahulīkatā mahapphalā hoti mahānisaṃsā.
..
It’s when a mendicant develops the perception of cessation together with the awakening factors of mindfulness, investigation of principles, energy, rapture, tranquility, immersion, and equanimity, which rely on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripen as letting go.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu nirodhasaññāsahagataṃ satisambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti … pe … nirodhasaññāsahagataṃ upekkhāsambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodhanissitaṃ vossaggapariṇāmiṃ.
..
When the perception of cessation is developed and cultivated you can expect one of two results:
Nirodhasaññāya, bhikkhave, bhāvitāya bahulīkatāya dvinnaṃ phalānaṃ aññataraṃ phalaṃ pāṭikaṅkhaṃ—
enlightenment in the present life, or if there’s something left over, non-return.
diṭṭheva dhamme aññā, sati vā upādisese anāgāmitā.
you see you don't even need use the word nibbana.

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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by auto » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:14 am

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.89-98/en/sujato
“Mendicants, the Realized One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha, is said to be the best of all sentient beings—be they footless, with two feet, four feet, or many feet …”

“Yāvatā, bhikkhave, sattā apadā vā dvipadā vā catuppadā vā bahuppadā vā”ti vitthāretabbaṃ.
https://suttacentral.net/sn45.139/en/sujato
“Mendicants, the Realized One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha, is said to be the best of all sentient beings—be they footless, with two feet, four feet, or many feet; with form or formless; with perception or without perception or with neither perception nor non-perception.
“Yāvatā, bhikkhave, sattā apadā vā dvipadā vā catuppadā vā bahuppadā vā rūpino vā arūpino vā saññino vā asaññino vā nevasaññīnāsaññino vā, tathāgato tesaṃ aggamakkhāyati arahaṃ sammāsambuddho;

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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by dylanj » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:37 am

"With the utter fading away of ignorance, even that body is not there, dependent on which there arises for him inwardly happiness or unhappiness; that speech is not there, dependent on which there arises for him inwardly happiness and unhappiness; that mind is not there, dependent on which there arises for him inwardly happiness and unhappiness."

“avijjāyatveva asesa virāga nirodhā so kāyo na hoti yaṁ paccayāssa taṁ uppajjati ajjhattaṁ sukhadukkhaṁ, sā vācā na hoti yaṁ paccayāssa taṁ uppajjati ajjhattaṁ sukhadukkhaṁ so mano na hoti yaṁ paccayāssa taṁ uppajjati ajjhattaṁ sukha dukkhaṁ.”

“Whatever field there was, whatever ground there was, whatever land there was, whatever reason there was, dependent on which suffering arose within, that is no more.”

“khettaṁ taṁ na hoti, vatthuṁ taṁ na hoti, āyatanaṁ taṁ na hoti, adhikaraṇaṁ taṁ na hoti, yampaccayāssa taṁ uppajjati ajjhattaṁ dukhadukkhaṁ.”

A. II 157-159 Saṁcetanā Sutta
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by dylanj » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:39 am

Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
preparations, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick
this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun.

Phena Sutta
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

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dylanj
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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by dylanj » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:39 am

"Suppose, monks, a magician or a magician's apprentice should hold a magic show at the four crossroads and a keen sighted man should see it, ponder over it and reflect on it radically. Even as he sees it, ponders over it and reflects on it radically, he would find it empty, he would find it hollow, he would find it void of essence. What essence, monks, could there be in a magic show?

Even so, monks, whatever consciousness, be it past, future or present, in oneself or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, a monk sees it, ponders over it and reflects on it radically. Even as he sees it, ponders over it and reflects on it radically, he would find it empty, he would find it hollow, he would find it void of essence. What essence, monks, could there be in consciousness?"

Phena Sutta
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:23 am

The explanations of these terms have been adapted from the Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka Mahathera.
......
......
Anatta: "No-self," non-ego, egolessness, impersonality; "neither within the bodily and mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them can be found anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-existing real ego-identity, soul or any other abiding substance."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... renow.html

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  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:08 pm

.



Vedanta and Buddhism A Comparative Study selected essays edited by Helmuth von Glasenapp
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el002.html

Even though the writing discussed from somewhat combined point of view of Buddhisms, it clearly explained Nibbana is not the same as self, so I post it here.


present treatise by Prof. Dr. H.V. Glasenapp has been selected for reprint particularly in view of the excellent elucidation of the Anatta Doctrine which it contains.
.....
The essential difference between the conception of deliverance in Vedanta and in Pali Buddhism lies in the following ideas: Vedanta sees deliverance as the manifestation of a state which, though obscured, has been existing from time immemorial; for the Buddhist, however, Nirvana is a reality which differs entirely from all dharmas as manifested in Samsara, and which only becomes effective, if they are abolished. To sum up: the Vedantin wishes to penetrate to the last reality which dwells within him as an immortal essence, or seed, out of which everything has arisen. The follower of Pali Buddhism, however, hopes by complete abandoning of all corporeality, all sensations, all perceptions, all volitions, and acts of consciousness, to realize a state of bliss which is entirely different from all that exists in the Samsara. >>
....
The noun attan and the adjective anatta can both be rendered by "without a self, without an independent essence, without a persisting core," since the Buddhists themselves do not make any difference in the use of these two grammatical forms. This becomes particularly evident in the case of the word anatta, which may be either a singular or a plural noun. In the well-known phrase sabbe sankhara anicca... sabbe dhamma anatta (Dhp. 279), "all conditioned factors of existence are transitory... all factors existent whatever (Nirvana included) are without a self," it is undoubtedly a plural noun, for the Sanskrit version has sarve dharma anatmanah. >>
....
The fact that in the Pali canon all worldly phenomena are said to be anatta has induced some scholars of the West to look for an Atman in Buddhism. For instance, the following "great syllogism" was formulated by George Grimm: "What I perceive to arise and to cease, and to cause suffering to me, on account of that impermanence, cannot be my ego. Now I perceive that everything cognizable in me and around me, arises and ceases, and causes me suffering on account of its impermanence. Therefore nothing cognizable is my ego." From that Grimm concludes that there must be an eternal ego-substance that is free from all suffering, and above all cognizability. This is a rash conclusion. By teaching that there is nowhere in the world a persisting Atman, the Buddha has not asserted that there must be a transcendental Atman (i.e., a self beyond the world). This kind of logic resembles that of a certain Christian sect which worships its masters as "Christs on earth," and tries to prove the simultaneous existence of several Christs from Mark 13,22, where it is said: "False Christs and false prophets shall arise"; for, if there are false Christs, there must also be genuine Christs! >>
....
Atman is in brahmanical opinion, something mental and conscious, a description which does not hold true for Nirvana. Furthermore, Nirvana is not, like the Atman, the primordial ground or the divine principle of the world (Aitareya Up. 1,1), nor is it that which preserves order in the world (Brhadar. Up. 3,8,9); it is also not the substance from which everything evolves, nor the core of all material elements. >>
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  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:56 am

.


This UTTERLY RULES OUT nibbana being self.
Nibbana is referred to as ‘not-self’ in the Vinaya Parivara
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/do ... bbana/4673


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  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

auto
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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by auto » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:14 pm

http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/k/khaya
--âtīta (a) gone beyond,recovered from the waning period (of chanda,the moon=the new moon) Sn.598; --ânupassin (a) realizing the fact of decay A.IV,146 sq.= V.359 (+vayânupassin); --ñāṇa knowledge of the fact of decay M.II,38=Pug.60; in the same sense khaye ñāṇa Nett 15,54,59,127,191,cp.kvu 230 sq.; --dhamma the law of decay A.III,54; Ps.I,53,76,78.(Page 235)
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/b/bhagava
bhagava:bhagava(pu)
ဘဂဝ(ပု)
[bhā+vana+kvi.
bhagavāPali Word Grammar from Pali Myanmar Dictionary
bhagavā:bhagavā(pu)
ဘဂဝါ(ပု)
[bhā+vanta+gamana.bhava+gamana+vanta.nīti,sutta,1341.]
[ဘာ+ဝႏၲ+ဂမန။ ဘဝ+ဂမန+ဝႏၲ။ နီတိ၊ သုတၱ၊ ၁၃၄၁။]
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/h/hāna
hānaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Hāna,(nt.) [fr.hā,cp.Sk.hāna] relinquishing,giving up,falling off; decrease,diminution,degradation A.II,167; III,349 sq.(opp.visesa),427; Vism.11.

--gāmin going into disgrace or insignificance A.III,349 sq.--bhāgiya conducive to relinquishing (of perversity and ignorance) D.III,272 sq.; A.II,167; Nett 77; Vism.85.(Page 730)
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/parinibbāyī
parinibbāyī Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
parinibbāyī,(adj.) one who has attained the final release.

parinibbāyīPali-Dictionary Vipassana Research Institute
parinibbāyī:One who attains nirvāṇa or the extinction of being
--
i think its someone who has recovered from the waning period has nibbana, when waning period returns its a person who has seen nibbana and is therefore confident etc virtues instead of whining and lamenting.
-

https://suttacentral.net/an9.12/en/sujato
With the ending of the five lower fetters they’re extinguished upon landing. This is the second person …
So pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā upahaccaparinibbāyī hoti … pe …
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/u/upahacca
upahaccaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Upahacca,(°-) [ger.of upahanti] -- 1.spoiling,impairing,defiling J.V,267 (manaṁ) -- 2.reducing,cutting short; only in phrase upahacca-parinibbāyin “coming to extinction after reducing the time of rebirths (or after having almost reached the destruction of life”) S.V,70,201 sq.; A.I,233 sq.; IV,380; Pug.17 (upagantvā kālakiriyaṁ āyukkhayassa āsane ṭhatvā ti attho Pug.A 199); Nett 190.-- The term is not quite clear; there seems to have existed very early confusion with upapacca › upapajja › uppajja,as indicated by BSk.upapadya-parinirvāyin,and by remarks of C.on Kvu 268,as quoted at Kvu trsln. 158,159.(Page 148)
'almost reached the destruction'. Think of Bahiya who after talking with Buddha got hit by a cow and died.

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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by zan » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:01 pm

Sabbe dhamma anatta

-SN 44.10


All dhammas are not self. This rules out anything whatsoever, including nibbana, being a self.
What do you think, mendicants? Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?”

“Impermanent, sir.”

“But if it’s impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?”

“Suffering, sir.”

“But if it’s impermanent, suffering, and perishable, is it fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self’?”

“No, sir.”

-SN 22.59
So if consciousness being impermanent is crucial to what disqualifies it from being deemed self, then one might presume that a permanent consciousness would be deemed self. Therefore, since nibbana is shown above to be ruled out as self, this rules out it being consciousness as well.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by cappuccino » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:07 pm

It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle,
the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,
Peace, the Deathless, the Blest, Safety,
the Wonderful, the Marvellous,
Nirvana, Purity, Freedom,
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44

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Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by confusedlayman » Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:36 pm

zan wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:49 pm
Hi Classical Theravada dhamma friends! I thought it may be useful to collect a list of quotes that show how impossible it is that nibbana is consciousness or a self.

I considered doing this in the great debate thread, but then realized they would get lost in the sea of debate, very difficult to find amongst the back and forth, and less convincing when every time a really good point is made, someone immediately casts doubt on it.

So, here, I propose that we post only quotes that show the above. No argument, no debate, just info supporting this fact. A handbook for those disillusioned by dhamma soul theories.

Why this fact? Because it is at the core of the dhamma. All else aside, if nibbana were a self or consciousness, the dhamma would have to be completely re evaluated. It necessarily calls into question the law of impermanence, the understanding of not self and other incredibly important foundational doctrines.

I got knocked for a loop last year by reading a lot of soul theories on the dhamma and actually walked away from it entirely for a long time, disillusioned, because, if the dhamma teaches that we have souls (or eternal citta, or whatever, some kind of continuing existence) then I found it impossible to continue practice, as the only thing, to my knowledge, that sets the dhamma completely aside from other religions, is the lack of a soul (it may sound light or superficial but this is very serious to myself and surely many dhamma practitioners). Now I have done some study and learned a little more and thought it may be nice to record as many clear and cohesive statements as possible, in the hopes that others in my situation will have a life raft to grab onto to get back on track with much less time lost and much less leg work!
nibbana is non-existent state. non existent state exist because it is place where nothing exist. it is not a place itself. why it is non existent place? no aggregates including conciousness. no conciousness means no world, no world means no thinking, no thinking= no stress. when u r unconcoius when u wake up u won't know what happened in unconsciousness state but imagine if u don't wake at all.... however, as long as mind moves (conciousness gets footing), u can't attain that state. if someone has other views, pls do emptiness, Annica meditation properly, u will reach unconscious state perception.
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

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