Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 5780
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by DooDoot » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:49 am

He perceives Nibbāna as Nibbāna. Having perceived Nibbāna as Nibbāna, he conceives himself as Nibbāna, he conceives himself in Nibbāna, he conceives himself apart from Nibbāna, he conceives Nibbāna to be ‘mine,’ he delights in Nibbāna. Why is that? Because he has not fully understood it, I say.

https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/bodhi
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

zan
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by zan » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:17 pm

pegembara wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:35 am
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
Anatta=No thingness
Nibbana isn't a thing. Sabbe dhamma anatta
Thanks, I'm confused, though, are you arguing against "sabbe dhamma anatta" proving that nibbana is not self? Could you please explain what your post is trying to get accross?

Nibbana is a dhamma. And anatta means "not self". So sabbe dhamma anatta (all dhammas are not self) does include nibbana and so nibbana is not self. If you are trying to argue against this point made by Bhikkhu Bodhi, referenced in my above post, please read the op title and full text. I am trying to create a thread of statements supporting one idea, free from debates, counter statements, casting of doubt, and arguments.

If you are not trying to argue perhaps I am just failing to understand you and if that is the case I apologize for my confusion and would appreciate your clarification :)
Last edited by zan on Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

User avatar
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:06 pm

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:35 pm

https://suttacentral.net/general-guide-sujato

A Reader’s Guide to the Pali Suttas
Bhikkhu Sujato, 2019
.....
Jain and Brahmanical theory proposed that transmigration was undergone by a soul or self which could attain freedom. For the Jains, the individual soul (jīva) attains eternal purity and bliss. For the most sophisticated among the brahmins, the individual self (ātman) realizes its true nature as identical with the divinity that is the cosmos itself (Sanskrit: tat tvam asi; Pali: eso hasmasmi; so attā so loko).
The Buddha rejected all such metaphysical notions of self or soul. Instead, he explained transmigration as an ongoing process of changing conditions, formulated as the famous twelve links of dependent origination (paṭicca samuppāda).
.....
.....
.....
In the generations preceding the Buddha, brahmanical philosophy had reached a peak in the Upaniṣads, with their sophisticated debates and mystic philosophy of the essential unity of self and cosmos. These texts form the immediate dialectical context of the Buddha’s philosophy. Yājñavalkya, a key Upaniṣadic philosopher, lived around Mithila, in the same region traversed by the Buddha, no more than a century or two before him. Some early Upaniṣads are apparently referred to in DN 13 The Three Knowledges (Tevijjasutta), and the Upaniṣadic doctrine of “self” (ātman) was prominently rejected by the Buddha in his most distinctive teaching: not-self (anattā).
.....
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

User avatar
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:06 pm

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:59 pm

I.B. Horner, Bhikkhu Bramali

theravāda vinayapiṭaka parivāra

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-pvr3/en/horner-brahmali

3. Summary Of Origins
Impermanent are all constructs, painful, not self, and constructed,
And certainly nibbāna is a description meaning not-self.

.....
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 2835
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by cappuccino » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:05 pm

pegembara wrote: Anatta=No thingness
Nothingness is a jhana. Yes, from seeing no self.

Buddha taught not self.

zan
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by zan » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:52 pm

About the Nature of Nibbāna
In the Pāḷi text of the Udāna the following passage occurs relating what Buddha uttered in triumph in relation to the nature of nibbāna. This utterance has been incorporated into the Canon as the Nibbāna-paṭisaṃyutta udāna.

“Atthi, bhikkhave, tadāyatanaṃ, yattha neva pathavī, na āpo, na tejo, na vāyo, na ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ, na viññāṇañ­cā­yatanaṃ, na ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ, na nevasaññā­nāsaññā­yatanaṃ, nāyaṃ loko, na paraloko, na ubho candimasūriyā. Tatrāpāhaṃ, bhikkhave, neva āgatiṃ vadāmi, na gatiṃ, na ṭhitiṃ, na cutiṃ, na upapattiṃ; appatiṭṭhaṃ, appavattaṃ, anārammaṇamevetaṃ. Esevanto dukkhassā”ti. (Udāna v 71)

“Monks! There is that base that has no elements of earth, water, fire, and air. It is neither the realm of Infinity of Space, nor the realm of Infinity of Consciousness, nor the realm of Nothingness, nor the realm of Neither Perception nor Non-perception. It is neither this world nor other worlds. No moon nor sun shines there. Here, monks, I say there is no going or coming. It has no foothold or residence. It is deathless, unborn, and unformed. It has no abode. Nothing ever occurs there. It has no sense-objects. It is the end of suffering.”

Nibbāna is Real
Since nibbāna means the cessation of mind, matter, and mental formations, suggestions have often been put forward that it signifies nothing and is thus useless. However, nibbāna is absolute reality, the reality of the nullification of the activities of mind, matter, and mental formations to which the knowledge of the Path, Fruition, and reviewing (paccavekkhaṇa) is inclined. It is the mind-object to which this knowledge is directed. Buddhas, Arahants, and Noble Ones vouch for the truth of its reality. For the sake of argument, let us say that there is no nibbāna where all the cycles of defilement, actions, and results cease. Then no one in this Universe can find peace. In the absence of nibbāna, defilement will play havoc with our lives to produce action, which will bring about results, which will create conditions for the arising of a new group of aggregates attended by suffering. It is only the Path and its Fruition that can exterminate defilements, and this extermination will bring the cycle of suffering to an end. This cessation of suffering is real. Buddhas and Arahants actually reach this stage, and after their parinibbāna all sufferings come to an end.

No Primary Elements in Nibbāna
In nibbāna there are no element of earth or solidity, no element of water or fluidity, no element of fire or thermal energy, and no element of air or motive force that can usually be met with in the world of the senses, such as the world of men and devas, or in the world of Form, such as the world of corporeal brahmas, etc. Possessing solidity, men, devas, and brahmas assume shapes and forms. Cessation means the end of such shapes and forms that possess mass. In the absence of mass, there are no elements of fluidity, thermal energy, and motive force.

Matter is Non-existent in Nibbāna
In the absence of the four primary elements there can be no derived materiality (upāda rūpa) formed by these four elements, for instance, the eye and the sight, the ear and the sound, etc. Since they are absent there will be no phenomena of seeing, hearing, etc., which occur in the sensual realm as sense-sphere consciousness and in the Form Sphere as form-sphere consciousness.

Consider this: without eyes one cannot see, without ears one cannot hear, without nose one cannot smell, without tongue one cannot taste, and without body one cannot get the sensation of touch. The physical sense bases are the seat of sensation, or the five sense organs that form the bases of consciousness. Devoid of the organs of sense, consciousness cannot arise. In the world of the brahmas, only the eye-base (cakkhu pasāda) and ear-base (sota pasāda) exist — nose-base (ghāna pasāda), tongue-base (jivhā pasāda), and body-base (kāya pasāda) being absent. So brahmas may possess noses and tongues in rudimentary forms or bodies or masses in great dimensions, but they do not know what smell is, what taste is, or what bodily impression is. However, there is the seat of consciousness usually called the heart-base (hadaya vatthu), in all sentient beings, whether celestial or human. So in these three realms, thought, knowledge, and absorptions can occur.

As I have said, as there are no primary elements in nibbāna, all matter dependent on these four elements are non-existent. Because of the absence of matter, there is no consciousness appertaining to the realm of the senses or to the realm of form — as, for instance, the first jhānic consciousness. For brevity’s sake I will discuss only about mind (citta), but whenever mind is mentioned one must remember it is accompanied by mental concomitants (cetasikā). Now the question arises whether in nibbāna there are still extant consciousness that arises without depending on matter as, for example, formless consciousness.

Absence of Formless Consciousness
Here, the text is also very explicit about the absence of formless sphere consciousness in nibbāna, whether it be consciousness appertaining to the abode of the Infinity of Space, or to the abode of the Infinity of Consciousness, or to the abode of Nothingness, or to the abode of Neither Perception nor Non-perception. In the realm of the Infinity of Space, rebirth-linking begins with the advent of consciousness relating to kamma result, mind and mental concomitants. For ordinary people, during the course of existence between rebirth-linking and death, wholesome or unwholesome consciousness, together with their concomitants arise. When such ordinary people are duly trained in the Dhamma they are known as trainees (sekkha).

Such trainees may become Arahants when they are reborn in the realm of the infinity of Space. In that case, only wholesome and functional consciousness arise together with their respective concomitants, but matter is absent there. Only mind and mental concomitants — all in a state of flux — are present. In that realm all phenomena are psychical. It just occurs to me that psychic beings need no food, clothing, or shelter, but it is usual for artists to depict this realm and others of the Formless Sphere as having palaces and mansions. However, in nibbāna they will be superfluous, as in nibbāna there is neither mind or matter.

Today non-Buddhists have become highly interested in space, but the space they have in mind is space in the physical sense. They may not be able to assimilate the idea of the existence of the realm of Infinity of Space, but the Buddha clearly differentiates the realm of mind and its constituents together with its state of absorptions from the realm of no-mind where all its concomitants and absorptions are nullified. A meditator who concentrates his or her mind on the rise and fall of the aggregates can aspire to reach the stage of knowledge of equanimity about formations. If he or she reaches that stage, he or she would feel the disappearance of the physical self, experiencing only a stream of consciousness that floats in space. As his or her knowledge progresses, this stream will become clearer and clearer. Strictly speaking, this is not absorption on Infinity of Space, but it is an insight akin to that absorption.

From the foregoing it may also be adduced that there is no consciousness and its concomitant appertaining to the realm of Infinity of Consciousness, and the same may be said of consciousness and its concomitant appertaining to the realm of Nothingness, and of Neither Perception nor Non-perception. The highest plane of existence is where perception is so subtle that it can be described as an intermediate stage between perception and non-perception. Equally subtle are contact, feeling, consciousness, and mental formations — concomitants of the mind that can be met with in that realm. In nibbāna such subtleties of the mind are entirely absent.

Those lacking confidence in the Dhamma and unable to realise the attainment of jhāna or ecstatic meditation (samāpatti), dispute all teachings relating to the realms of existence just described. What such sceptics should do is to practise insight meditation as taught by the Buddha. If they do they will attain jhāna that belongs to the realm of Neither Perception nor Non-perception, and realise for themselves the difference between the jhānic state in the Formless Sphere and nibbāna where such a state becomes redundant. It is futile to reject jhāna and nibbāna without any practical investigation.

Absence of Mind and Matter in Nibbāna
In nibbāna there are no such things as mind or mental concomitants, which can be met with in the sense-sphere or form-sphere. It naturally follows that mind and matter that belong to the thirty-one planes of existence are totally absent in nibbāna. However, some would like to propose that after the parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego.

With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age, disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds.

Nibbāna is Beyond All Realms
Hence the text says, “nāyaṃ loko, na paraloko,” which means “neither in this world nor in other worlds.” In the absence of matter there can be no concept of darkness; and in the absence of the concept of darkness, there can be no concept of light. Hence in nibbāna there is no sun nor moon. Where no new bodies of the aggregates arise there can be no darkness or light. Yet the question might arise whether it is possible for sentient beings to come to nibbāna in the way that beings from the lower realms come to the human world, or beings from the human world come to the world of devas. However, in nibbāna there are no such comings. The usual term to describe the realisation of nibbāna is that the Buddhas and Arahants “enter” nibbāna, or specifically, anupādisesanibbāna. This does not mean the arrival of new aggregates, but the cutting off of the flow of mind and matter that causes existence. It is the complete extinction of aggregates; and this extinction is recognised as anupādisesanibbāna. It is not a place where beings make their landing from other planes of existence.

No one goes out or gets transported from nibbāna to other planes of existence either. Beings with wholesome kammas depart this human world for the world of devas; and those from heaven might also come down to earth as human beings. Those with unwholesome kammas might prefer going down to the lower realms. In nibbāna there is no such coming and going.
Attributes of Nibbāna

Nibbāna Has No Mass
It is often asked whether the Buddhas and Arahants exist as individuals in nibbāna. There is no mass in nibbāna. As it is not built up with a special kind of matter or mind, it cannot be looked upon as a mountain peopled by individuals, standing solidly across the firmament, like heaven or earth.

Nibbāna is Deathless and Birthless
In the thirty-one planes of existence one is born to die and be reborn to die again. Nibbāna is deathless and birthless. In the world of devas and brahmas, birth means sudden appearance, and death means sudden disappearance. Nibbāna is the cessation of all aggregates. In such a cessation there is neither appearance nor disappearance.
Nibbāna Offers No Sense-objects
In the absence of mind, matter, consciousness, concomitants, etc., There can be no sense-objects, and in the absence of sense-objects no opportunities arise for mental formations to play their part. Nibbāna means the end of suffering. Since there are no primary elements and no mind and matter, everything ceases, and this cessation means eternal peace. All sufferings end.
Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw. A selection from his work titled: On the Nature of Nibbana
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

SarathW
Posts: 12020
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by SarathW » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:29 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:05 pm
pegembara wrote: Anatta=No thingness
Nothingness is a jhana. Yes, from seeing no self.

Buddha taught not self.
Nothingness is not Anatta.
In this thread you have to provide Sutta quotes not your personal opinion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

zan
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by zan » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:41 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:05 pm
pegembara wrote: Anatta=No thingness
Nothingness is a jhana. Yes, from seeing no self.

Buddha taught not self.
Please respect the instructions in the op and stop arguing with posters who are following the instructions.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

zan
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by zan » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:42 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:01 pm
Then again, the disciple of the noble ones, having gone into the wilderness, to the root of a tree, or into an empty dwelling, considers this:

'This is empty of self or of anything pertaining to self.' Practicing & frequently abiding in this way, his mind acquires confidence in that dimension. There being full confidence, he either attains the dimension of nothingness now or else is committed to discernment. With the break-up of the body, after death, it's possible that this leading-on consciousness of his will go to the dimension of nothingness. This is declared to be the second practice conducive to the dimension of nothingness.

Aneñja-sappaya Sutta
The whole point of this thread is that it not be an argument or debate. Please stop. Please only post what the op asks for in this thread.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

zan
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by zan » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:43 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:04 pm
or else is committed to discernment.
discernment of not self
Seriously. Please stop this debating. Please read and respect the op instructions.
Never read anything I write as an accurate statement about anything whatsoever. First, look to wiser ones than I. Look to wise texts. Unless you can confirm their accuracy from a reliable source, treat my writings like word games, nothing more.

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 977
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by Pondera » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:41 am

"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

User avatar
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:06 pm

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:07 pm

Sabba Sutta: The All
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

....
This raises the question, if the word "all" does not include nibbana, does that mean that one may infer from the statement, "all phenomena are not-self" that nibbana is self? The answer is no.
.....
🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

alfa
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:43 pm
Location: India

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by alfa » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:41 pm

Pondera wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:41 am
"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
How is this even possible? :shrug:

User avatar
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:06 pm

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:23 pm

Nibbana as Living Experience / The Buddha and The Arahant
Two Studies from the Pali Canon
by
Lily de Silva

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el407.html
At this point an observation can be made from another point of view. Buddhism describes the characteristics of all things in three statements: Sabbe sa"nkhaaraa aniccaa, sabbe sa"nkhaaraa dukkhaa, sabbe dhammaa anattaa, meaning all conditioned things are impermanent, all conditioned things are unsatisfactory, all phenomena are non-self.[100] Here the change of terminology in the last statement seems important. The Sa.myutta Commentary explains the last statement as: Sabbe dhammaa anattaa ti sabbe catubhuumakaa dhammaa .[101] The Visuddhimagga explains the four bhuumis or planes as kaamaavacara, ruupaavacara, aruupaavacara, and lokuttara, meaning the sensual sphere, the fine-material sphere, the immaterial sphere, and the supramundane.[102] Therefore dhammaa in our statement can be interpreted as including the supramundane state of Nibbana as well. Commenting on this statement Ven. Narada Thera observes: "Dhammaa can be applied to both conditioned and unconditioned things and states. It embraces both conditioned and unconditioned things including Nibbana. In order to show that even Nibbana is free from a permanent soul the Buddha used the term dhammaa in the third verse. Nibbana is a positive supramundane state and is without a soul."[103] It is significant that dhammaa was not used in the first two statements. The purpose seems to be to exclude Nibbana which is permanent and blissful. Therefore we can surmise a condition that is permanent and blissful, but it is not a self. That state is Nibbana. It has to be a dimension completely different from all that is worldly. The permanence that is conjectured here has no reference to time and space, and the bliss that is spoken of has no reference to feelings, vedanaa .

🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

pegembara
Posts: 1543
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Post sutta quotes that utterly rule out nibbana being consciousness or self

Post by pegembara » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:45 am

zan wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:17 pm
pegembara wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:35 am
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
Anatta=No thingness
Nibbana isn't a thing. Sabbe dhamma anatta
Thanks, I'm confused, though, are you arguing against "sabbe dhamma anatta" proving that nibbana is not self? Could you please explain what your post is trying to get accross?

Nibbana is a dhamma. And anatta means "not self". So sabbe dhamma anatta (all dhammas are not self) does include nibbana and so nibbana is not self. If you are trying to argue against this point made by Bhikkhu Bodhi, referenced in my above post, please read the op title and full text. I am trying to create a thread of statements supporting one idea, free from debates, counter statements, casting of doubt, and arguments.

If you are not trying to argue perhaps I am just failing to understand you and if that is the case I apologize for my confusion and would appreciate your clarification :)
I am not arguing against the Buddha by asserting that nibbana is atta! :shock:

all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished - Since nibbana is not extinguished(nibbana is not anicca), it isn't included in the All.
Since all experience is extinguished, 'consciousness' is likewise extinguished and cannot be equated with nibbana.
'Consciousness' is an activity, not an entity. The activity ceases in final nibbana.
"Just as fire is classified simply by whatever requisite condition in dependence on which it burns — a fire that burns in dependence on wood is classified simply as a wood-fire, a fire that burns in dependence on wood-chips is classified simply as a wood-chip-fire; a fire that burns in dependence on grass is classified simply as a grass-fire; a fire that burns in dependence on cow-dung is classified simply as a cow-dung-fire; a fire that burns in dependence on chaff is classified simply as a chaff-fire; a fire that burns in dependence on rubbish is classified simply as a rubbish-fire — in the same way, consciousness is classified simply by the requisite condition in dependence on which it arises. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the eye & forms is classified simply as eye-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the ear & sounds is classified simply as ear-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the nose & aromas is classified simply as nose-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the tongue & flavors is classified simply as tongue-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the body & tactile sensations is classified simply as body-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the intellect & ideas is classified simply as intellect-consciousness.
Last edited by pegembara on Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests