momentariness not in sutta?

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atipattoh
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Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by atipattoh » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:58 pm

Hi Robertk
When i "develop" the spiral structure for ekaggata, there is 1 thing that i notice on the patiloma arupa, consciousness is established on the 3rd, from neither-nor to consciousness.
Within 17 javana, the peculiar part is that the names, is unique when i overlap the arupa and and first 3 moment of process consciousness.
Pg155 in of Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma; there are 14 acts of process consciousness. So we have 3 not within the 17; Past Bhavanga, Vibrational Bhavanga and Arrest Bhavanga. Particularly, arrest bhavanga when maps onto consciousness arupa, appear to be "related", for what phenomena of arresting functional if not at establishment of consciousness. This 3 is termed as a bhavanga, prior to beginning of "interaction" on adverting process that occur within the domain of space!
Thus, i have a particular javana as the subset of arupa, then
Stream of Bhavanga <--> Cessation
Past Bhavanga <--> Nevasaññanāsañña
Vibrational Bhavanga <--> Nothingness
Arresting Bhavanga <--> Consciousness
14 acts of process consciousness <--> space.

There is no surprise to have seperate name although they share similar "domains", since essentially both differ in its process description. The general arupa is meant to describe derivation phenomena whereas the 17 javana is describing the arising and establishment with cognition.

But on the 14 acts, i still find that a little headache to relate. My guess is probably can look at dependent arising on this part to relate part of it, the balance has to be varified thru meditation experience.

Btw, does anyone has any articles or writing that discuss in this perspective, with reference to sutta?

****
Hi Mike,
Even the coarse meditation technic is not describe in detail in the sutta, so i wouldn't expect a direct description of momentariness in the sutta either.

As i herad, anhidhamma split from sutta in 2nd (if not, then the 3rd) counsel. And probably evolve in terminology and enrich in its content.

Further, if no momentariness, rupa jhana and arupa jhana must be enteted in specific sequence. It is momentary, that J1->J4 & arupas can be entered in any sequence; by J4 & Cessation attainer.

****

Hi Volo, your opinion of
if I want to be mindful of this feeling I would need to take in the next mind moment this (already past) feeling as an object. So I cannot do both: have a feeling and be mindful of it.
is not wrong, just that that is on a "different" subject from momentariness. The example that you quote is too coarse. Furthermore, I don't even think that momentariness cover anuloma-arupa (not an arupa attainments but a "revisit" on the arupas). Momentariness is meant to cater for the patiloma arupa, the arupa jhanas attainments after attaining Jhana. Only to investigate the compounded moments. That is how i would see it. It is not possible to do it and being mindful at the same time for the patiloma arupa, only recollection is possible. When i say mindful, i mean "one" knows "the object" as it occur (a process that not yet notice its seperation). A 2 mind moments appear to be simultaneous. For one that do not do patiloma arupa, then, mindful for sati seems sufficient. But for one that is doing patiloma arupa, when in later process referring to the discernment on object , recollection is appropriate, technically speaking. Recollection is more of moment investigating moment, a revisit of the rupa.

Coming back to "have a feeling (object) and be mindful of it"; i'll attempt to paint a picture.

Consider a stage of unstable uggaha nimitta, swithing between parikamma and uggaha; say that one "see" a rod nimitta that mimic the breath. Here, moments are compounded. There is a watcher and an object. Usually the breath is subtle, which mean it is long and at ease. A thought may arise; "nimitta is too short, that is not tally with subtle long breath". When such thought arises, nimitta "disappear". The question is, if a mind mement is able to stay with the object and be mindful at the same time, then when the thought arises, nimitta will not disappear; for it should not confine the watcher from being mindful of 2 objects simultaneously.

Yet, a skillful means is able to switch in between the 2 objects; to maintain the nimitta, by reducing and dropping judgemental thoughts.


***

After 7 hrs drive tomorrow, once i settle down at home, i might try to see if i can add in further; or i might not if i got caught up with other thing
Last edited by atipattoh on Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mikenz66
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Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:15 pm

atipattoh wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:58 pm
Hi Mike,
Even the coarse meditation technic is not describe in detail in the sutta, so i wouldn't expect a direct description of momentariness in the sutta either.

As i herad, anhidhamma split from sutta in 2nd (if not, then the 3rd) counsel. And probably evolve in terminology and enrich in its content.

Further, if no momentariness, rupa jhana and arupa jhana must be enteted in specific sequence. It is momentary, that J1->J4 & arupas can be entered in any sequence; by J4 & Cessation attainer.
****
I agree. There are very detailed instructions on how to access particular states and so on in Commentaries such as the Visuddhimagga, whereas the suttas give very brief summaries.

:heart:
Mike

atipattoh
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Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by atipattoh » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:33 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:15 pm
I agree. There are very detailed instructions on how to access particular states and so on in Commentaries such as the Visuddhimagga, whereas the suttas give very brief summaries.
VM is a thick book 😅, so i tend to choose a short cut, ask a teacher.
It is not easy to convince suttanta people to accept "suttas give very brief summaries". 😌

~~ metta ~~~

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robertk
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Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by robertk » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:53 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:23 am
Hi Robert,

I certainly agree that there are passages in the Suttas and Abhidhamma that can be interpreted from the momentariness point of view, and of course that is what Buddhaghosa and so on are doing. However, as far as I can tell the "billions of mind moments per second" and the sequences of a dozen or so mind-moments that are in the later Commentaries are not in the early material. That doesn't mean that they are not useful concepts, but I think it's a bit too simplistic to say that the Commentaries are some fixed, infallible, thing. In fact, it is quite common in the Visuddhimagga, to find Buddhaghosa saying that the reciters of one Nikaya have one interpretation and the reciters of another have a different interpretation. The Commentaries themselves give precedence to the Tipitika, so I think that anyone interested in the Theravada point of view would want to check the reasoning.

:heart:
Mike
Hi
on another thread I explained this:
viewtopic.php?t=28096

Yes occasionally Buddhaghosa notes disagreement between the ancient texts which he used as his resource. One example is the reason that Mahamogallana died so violently: one group of reciters say that it was due to his killing his parents in a past life - while the others say he planned and attempted their murder but they survived. Buddhaghosa doesn't have an opinion as to which version was correct as far as I remember.


Anyway please list these occurrences you mention in the visuddhimagga (if you prefer on the thread I just linked to), so we can examine them properly.
thanks

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robertk
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Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by robertk » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:59 am

Hi Atipattoh

from about page 244 on you will find details of the processes that will explain at least some of your queries. Let me known if you have specific questions after you read over them (maybe on another thread).

http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf

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mikenz66
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Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:23 am

robertk wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:53 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:23 am
In fact, it is quite common in the Visuddhimagga, to find Buddhaghosa saying that the reciters of one Nikaya have one interpretation and the reciters of another have a different interpretation.
Anyway please list these occurrences you mention in the visuddhimagga (if you prefer on the thread I just linked to), so we can examine them properly.
By just searching for "reciters" I see disagreements in the following. [There are other cases in the VM where there is not actual disagreement, but differences in how different practitioners attain particular insights, etc.]:

VIII. 179
VIII. 218
VIII. 112-113

I think I already pointed those out on the other thread. I'm not sure why there is any surprise that there were different interpretations, given that there were large enough differences to lead to many different sects after a time.

:heart:
Mike

atipattoh
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Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by atipattoh » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:55 pm

robertk wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:59 am
Thanks Robertk! 👌
I had read thru one the simplified Chinese translation, tried the english version just now, but my brain is a bit "stone" to read anything. A glance on lakkhaņarūpa, has something on momentariness, does this appear in sutta?

~~ metta ~~~

atipattoh
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Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by atipattoh » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:36 pm

Hi Robertk,
i have not read thru that pages yet; i would prefer to come from the sutta direction for now. I did a google search and found this sutta.
SN 22.57 Sattatthana Sutta: Seven Bases/Cases - Mike's post
Chinese Parallel by 莊春江
For one that completed the 7 cases, is said to be
well freed are consummate ones. For consummate ones, there is no cycle of rebirths to be found. That’s how a mendicant is skilled in seven cases.
where as the 3 modes is loosely glossed thru:
(taken from AT translation)
"And how does a monk have three modes of investigation? There is the case where a monk investigates in terms of properties(the elements), investigates in terms of sense spheres, investigates in terms of dependent co-arising. This is how a monk has three modes of investigation.
"A monk who is skilled in seven bases and has three modes of investigation is fulfilled and fully accomplished in this doctrine & discipline — the ultimate person."
I wonder what does this "properties/elements" refer to?
I'm ok with properties on 7 cases, but to use properties at bottom paragraph, that would be repetitive; that does not make sense. But elements does not have that restriction, on the 7 cases, it can means the characteristic of the 4 great elements.
But when it comes to the bottom, there is no elaboration, but the elements can not be the same as the one in ealier paragraph, it should means something more profound.

In the 7 cases, we have "mahābhūtā", what we knows as the 4 elements; but within the investigation part, we have "dhātuso", (from suttacentral; "dhātuyo" from mike's 2nd post, bottom) obviously the 7 cases and the investigation is talking about different property.
kevalī:One who has wholly gone through or mastered,one who is accomplished
Mastered and accomplished, would then refer to attainer; and one that fulfill the title of a supreme person, not just a consummate one; the only different that i see in the two is one with anuloma-arupas with no clear-cut attainments of second and third fruition; a supreme person is one that with anuloma & patiloma arupas attainments, with clear distinction of fruitions.

Back to "dhātuso"; to make out so( :he, this, that ) here, i would take it to mean specific. Thus specific elements; with a group of specific elements that results in dispassion and cessation on a different level after investigation, i can only see that dhātu refer to the mind element, thought element, and mind consciousness element & that fits well with group of jhavanas/moments in Abhidhamma; even if dhātuyo, then yo would be which ever, thus which ever elements.

atipattoh
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Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by atipattoh » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:07 am

atipattoh wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:55 pm
robertk wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:59 am
Thanks Robertk! 👌
I had read thru one the simplified Chinese translation, tried the english version just now, but my brain is a bit "stone" to read anything. A glance on lakkhaņarūpa, has something on momentariness, does this appear in sutta?

Edit: apology Robertk, i thought you mean pg 244 of comprehensive abhidhamma, now i now you mean the article you attached. Thanks again.

~~ metta ~~~

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robertk
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Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by robertk » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:51 am

atipattoh wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:36 pm
Hi Robertk,
i have not read thru that pages yet; i would prefer to come from the sutta direction for now. I did a google search and found this sutta.
SN 22.57 Sattatthana Sutta: Seven Bases/Cases - Mike's post
Chinese Parallel by 莊春江
For one that completed the 7 cases, is said to be
well freed are consummate ones. For consummate ones, there is no cycle of rebirths to be found. That’s how a mendicant is skilled in seven cases.
where as the 3 modes is loosely glossed thru:
(taken from AT translation)
"And how does a monk have three modes of investigation? There is the case where a monk investigates in terms of properties(the elements), investigates in terms of sense spheres, investigates in terms of dependent co-arising. This is how a monk has three modes of investigation.
"A monk who is skilled in seven bases and has three modes of investigation is fulfilled and fully accomplished in this doctrine & discipline — the ultimate person."
I wonder what does this "properties/elements" refer to?
I'm ok with properties on 7 cases, but to use properties at bottom paragraph, that would be repetitive; that does not make sense. But elements does not have that restriction, on the 7 cases, it can means the characteristic of the 4 great elements.
But when it comes to the bottom, there is no elaboration, but the elements can not be the same as the one in ealier paragraph, it should means something more profound.

Hi Atipattoh
(what a strange comment about the 7 modes possibly related to musical notes by the translator that you linked to.)

This is mostly about the 5 khandhas:
on suttacentral there is this summary: ""To be fully accomplished, a mendicant should investigate the five aggregates in light of the four noble truths, as well as their gratification, drawback, and escape. In addition, they should investigate the elements, sense fields, and dependent origination"
so it also brings in ayatanas and dhatus and paticcasamuppada
maybe post any further comments related to this on the thread you linked to..(you can copy sections from the pali below)

7. Sattaṭṭhānasutta
Sāvatthinidānaṃ. “Sattaṭṭhānakusalo, bhikkhave, bhikkhu tividhūpaparikkhī imasmiṃ dhammavinaye kevalī vusitavā uttamapurisoti vuccati. Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sattaṭṭhānakusalo hoti? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu rūpaṃ pajānāti, rūpasamudayaṃ pajānāti, rūpanirodhaṃ pajānāti, rūpanirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ pajānāti; rūpassa assādaṃ pajānāti, rūpassa ādīnavaṃ pajānāti, rūpassa nissaraṇaṃ pajānāti; vedanaṃ pajānāti … saññaṃ … saṅkhāre … viññāṇaṃ pajānāti, viññāṇasamudayaṃ pajānāti, viññāṇanirodhaṃ pajānāti, viññāṇanirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ pajānāti; viññāṇassa assādaṃ pajānāti, viññāṇassa ādīnavaṃ pajānāti, viññāṇassa nissaraṇaṃ pajānāti.

Katamañca, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ? Cattāro ca mahābhūtā, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṃ upādāya rūpaṃ. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ. Āhārasamudayā rūpasamudayo; āhāranirodhā rūpanirodho. Ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo rūpanirodhagāminī paṭipadā, seyyathidaṃ—sammādiṭṭhi … pe … sammāsamādhi.

Yaṃ rūpaṃ paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṃ somanassaṃ—ayaṃ rūpassa assādo. Yaṃ rūpaṃ aniccaṃ dukkhaṃ vipariṇāmadhammaṃ—ayaṃ rūpassa ādīnavo. Yo rūpasmiṃ chandarāgavinayo chandarāgappahānaṃ—idaṃ rūpassa nissaraṇaṃ.

Ye hi keci, bhikkhave, samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā evaṃ rūpaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ rūpasamudayaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ rūpanirodhaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ rūpanirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ abhiññāya; evaṃ rūpassa assādaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ rūpassa ādīnavaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ rūpassa nissaraṇaṃ abhiññāya rūpassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipannā, te suppaṭipannā. Ye suppaṭipannā, te imasmiṃ dhammavinaye gādhanti.

Ye ca kho keci, bhikkhave, samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā evaṃ rūpaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ rūpasamudayaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ rūpanirodhaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ rūpanirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ abhiññāya; evaṃ rūpassa assādaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ rūpassa ādīnavaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ rūpassa nissaraṇaṃ abhiññāya rūpassa nibbidā virāgā nirodhā anupādā vimuttā, te suvimuttā. Ye suvimuttā, te kevalino. Ye kevalino vaṭṭaṃ tesaṃ natthi paññāpanāya.

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, vedanā? Chayime, bhikkhave, vedanākāyā—cakkhusamphassajā vedanā … pe … manosamphassajā vedanā. Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, vedanā. Phassasamudayā vedanāsamudayo; phassanirodhā vedanānirodho. Ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo vedanānirodhagāminī paṭipadā, seyyathidaṃ—sammādiṭṭhi … pe … sammāsamādhi.

Yaṃ vedanaṃ paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṃ somanassaṃ—ayaṃ vedanāya assādo. Yā vedanā aniccā dukkhā vipariṇāmadhammā—ayaṃ vedanāya ādīnavo. Yo vedanāya chandarāgavinayo chandarāgappahānaṃ—idaṃ vedanāya nissaraṇaṃ.

Ye hi, keci, bhikkhave, samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā evaṃ vedanaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ vedanāsamudayaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ vedanānirodhaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ vedanānirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ abhiññāya; evaṃ vedanāya assādaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ vedanāya ādīnavaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ vedanāya nissaraṇaṃ abhiññāya vedanāya nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipannā, te suppaṭipannā. Ye suppaṭipannā, te imasmiṃ dhammavinaye gādhanti.

Ye ca kho keci, bhikkhave, samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā evaṃ vedanaṃ abhiññāya … pe … vaṭṭaṃ tesaṃ natthi paññāpanāya.

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, saññā? Chayime, bhikkhave, saññākāyā—rūpasaññā, saddasaññā, gandhasaññā, rasasaññā, phoṭṭhabbasaññā, dhammasaññā. Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, saññā. Phassasamudayā saññāsamudayo; phassanirodhā saññānirodho. Ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saññānirodhagāminī paṭipadā, seyyathidaṃ—sammādiṭṭhi … pe … sammāsamādhi … pe … vaṭṭaṃ tesaṃ natthi paññāpanāya.

Katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? Chayime, bhikkhave, cetanākāyā—rūpasañcetanā … pe … dhammasañcetanā. Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā. Phassasamudayā saṅkhārasamudayo; phassanirodhā saṅkhāranirodho. Ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saṅkhāranirodhagāminī paṭipadā, seyyathidaṃ—sammādiṭṭhi … pe … sammāsamādhi.

Yaṃ saṅkhāre paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṃ somanassaṃ—ayaṃ saṅkhārānaṃ assādo. Ye saṅkhārā aniccā dukkhā vipariṇāmadhammā—ayaṃ saṅkhārānaṃ ādīnavo. Yo saṅkhāresu chandarāgavinayo chandarāgappahānaṃ—idaṃ saṅkhārānaṃ nissaraṇaṃ.

Ye hi keci, bhikkhave, samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā evaṃ saṅkhāre abhiññāya, evaṃ saṅkhārasamudayaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ saṅkhāranirodhaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ saṅkhāranirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ abhiññāya … pe … saṅkhārānaṃ nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipannā te suppaṭipannā. Ye suppaṭipannā, te imasmiṃ dhammavinaye gādhanti … pe … vaṭṭaṃ tesaṃ natthi paññāpanāya.

Katamañca, bhikkhave, viññāṇaṃ? Chayime, bhikkhave, viññāṇakāyā—cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, sotaviññāṇaṃ, ghānaviññāṇaṃ, jivhāviññāṇaṃ, kāyaviññāṇaṃ, manoviññāṇaṃ. Idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, viññāṇaṃ. Nāmarūpasamudayā viññāṇasamudayo; nāmarūpanirodhā viññāṇanirodho. Ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo viññāṇanirodhagāminī paṭipadā, seyyathidaṃ—sammādiṭṭhi … pe … sammāsamādhi.

Yaṃ viññāṇaṃ paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṃ somanassaṃ—ayaṃ viññāṇassa assādo. Yaṃ viññāṇaṃ aniccaṃ dukkhaṃ vipariṇāmadhammaṃ—ayaṃ viññāṇassa ādīnavo. Yo viññāṇasmiṃ chandarāgavinayo chandarāgappahānaṃ—idaṃ viññāṇassa nissaraṇaṃ.

Ye hi keci, bhikkhave, samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā evaṃ viññāṇaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ viññāṇasamudayaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ viññāṇanirodhaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ viññāṇanirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ abhiññāya; evaṃ viññāṇassa assādaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ viññāṇassa ādīnavaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ viññāṇassa nissaraṇaṃ abhiññāya viññāṇassa nibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya paṭipannā, te suppaṭipannā. Ye suppaṭipannā, te imasmiṃ dhammavinaye gādhanti.

Ye ca kho keci, bhikkhave, samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā evaṃ viññāṇaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ viññāṇasamudayaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ viññāṇanirodhaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ viññāṇanirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ abhiññāya; evaṃ viññāṇassa assādaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ viññāṇassa ādīnavaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ viññāṇassa nissaraṇaṃ abhiññāya viññāṇassa nibbidā virāgā nirodhā anupādā vimuttā, te suvimuttā. Ye suvimuttā, te kevalino. Ye kevalino vaṭṭaṃ tesaṃ natthi paññāpanāya. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sattaṭṭhānakusalo hoti.

Kathañca, bhikkhave, bhikkhu tividhūpaparikkhī hoti? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhātuso upaparikkhati, āyatanaso upaparikkhati, paṭiccasamuppādaso upaparikkhati. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu tividhūpaparikkhī hoti. Sattaṭṭhānakusalo, bhikkhave, bhikkhu tividhūpaparikkhī, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye kevalī vusitavā ‘uttamapuriso’ti vuccatī”ti.

Pañcamaṃ.

atipattoh
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Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by atipattoh » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:58 am

Yes, dhātuso, āyatanaso, paticcasamuppādaso are words that we do not see in the 7 cases. A few keys words in the 7 cases; origin, cessation (leads to) gratification, drawback, and escape. It seems unique for the appearance of the last paragraph. My usual take on sutta is the lower to be related to the upper; but not on this one.

Imagine that if you take out the “examine in three ways”, then the sutta does have such structure.

Upper segment
At Sāvatthī. “Mendicants, in this teaching and training a mendicant who is skilled in seven cases and who examines in three ways is called consummate, accomplished, a supreme person. And how is a mendicant skilled in seven cases?
…....They understand consciousness’s gratification, drawback, and escape.
Lower segment
And what is form? The four primary elements, and form derived from the four primary elements. This is called form.
…..
Those ascetics and brahmins who have directly known consciousness in this way......... For consummate ones, there is no cycle of rebirths to be found. That’s how a mendicant is skilled in seven cases.

The “examine in three ways” may appear to be coming from another sutta; if looking from a sutta structure in term of segment. If this part is originally there (which i think it is), the original sutta should be much longer than this; or relate to other sutta, that's why I mention the mind element in earlier post.

Imaging a mango flavor pudding that has strawberries in it, when you dig out the strawberries, what is left behind is its shape. Here we have dhatuso.

When a specific elements, link to specific spheres, investigating within dependent arising; that is from perspective of patiloma arupas spheres. The 7 cases is only working in the anuloma process towards cessation.

Why I says “examine in three ways” is originally there? The form in 7 cases, we have “catunnañca mahābhūtā”. In 4 element meditation, there is one characteristic, smoothness that is link to speed of lightning. When one allow his mind to glide slowly from forehead, from front down to private part, goes to the back, moves up to tip of the head; a complete circle, continue until familiar; slowly increase the speed. One will notice that as the mind is following as it “become faster and faster”, so fast that the following mind will eventually snap, the movement can not be followed further; but the gliding still continue! Now, the question, who is gliding? The mind is still gliding, just that “no watcher”. Are you going to get giddy? Nop! It is all “in the mind”; but if you are stuck on tactile, then different story. The possibility that the following can snap is there is one mind moments “watching” another mind moments; rapid speed is a necessity for that to happen. The last paragraph is the escalation of the practice that tally with release both ways.

Some may still doubt on mind move faster than lightning. It may not be easy to relate the lightning directly, elaboration is not easy to put forward. I will move to a slower speed object; a 3 wing rotating ceiling fan. When it is operated at lowest speed, the wings appear to be lot more than 3. When it is operated at full speed, a full disc is form. See, the mind moment is so fast that it registered more images of the wings than the originals. Ok, the image may be blurred. The unclear part is because colour light impingement is weak. If the fan is installed with LED light, rotating in the dark, it turn out to be a bright light disc.

So, within the 7 cases, smoothness properties is already showing us that the mind is that fast. Smoothness can be verified without Jhana attainment, then dhatuso has to be something more profound, after investigation, one deserve the title of a not just consummate, but accomplished and supreme person.


There was a movie that i like the concept.
C O N T A C T (clever girl!), minutes 2.16


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Anuloma is forward, but within the phenomena, I would say it is reverse practice (“-ve nature). It is possible because things are compounded in anuloma. The 7 cases falls into this category . Its origin, its cessation. Terminology is spoken with reference to conventional understanding. Although Patiloma also working towards cessation, it works on direct forward arising elements (+ve nature) but through reverse mode. What, if there is no momentariness, then patiloma arupas is not valid, thus release both ways is not valid. 2 nd fruition rupajhana is void, thus J3 & J4 is void. Then we do not have anagami, sambhavesi has to be taken out from karaniya metta sutta.

Well, the cavities on the pudding, from its shape, does tells me that there were strawberries in it originally.

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In another thread , I voted something substantially different as the third model diagram is drawn from the perspective of sutta, arise, stay , fall. I don't think “upaṭṭhahanti” is the same as “ ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ”

How many really sees the rising and falling of a thought? What is known is changes of strings of thoughts, the “product” of cognition part, the registration, during upaṭṭhahanti. Though (A) (Aa)uppajjanti, (Ab)upaṭṭhahanti , (Ac)abbhattham, appear to be the same as (B) (Ba)uppādo, (Bb)ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ, (Bc)vayo; it does not necessary means that A & B refer to same catagory of subject.

BB's note on Comprehensive Abhidhamma pg156, thitassa annathattam “the alteration of that which stands”; in term of time scale, it is only a minute fraction compare to uppādo & vayo. Whereas upaṭṭhahanti is prominent compare to uppajjanti & abbhattham.

Notice that the sequence for B is uppādo, vayo, then only ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ; that ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ introduce the concept of “fraction of time”.

Since they are not the same; thus B conditions a small part of Aa, new B conditions further for Ab occur, Ab remains; until yet another B conditions for Ac. Now, such noticing of “intensity” of Aa, Ab & Ac is on which part of B? Ba, Bb or Bc?
Since Ba & Bc is more prominent in B, then Ba & Bc? Which part of Ba & Bc; the end of Ba and beginning of Bc? But there is a Bc! Ok, ok, middle of Ba to middle Bc? Then Ab is going to be ups&downs ~~~~~~~ ; now I'am going to scratch my head, then what is Aa & Ac? bottom-up & top-down “~~~” ? This rising-wavy upwards, remains-upper-score “~~~~~~”, falling wavy downwards, itsn't it odd? a single B does not works for each A! The only solution that works is a group of many Bs, with registration at the end of each groups; and for each group to produce a single moment of impact on Aa, Ab & Ac, each moment/javana has to occur in a rapid speed; therefore, there is momentariness.

(note: ~~~ are just symbolic, that is the closes wavy future on keyboard)

atipattoh
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by atipattoh » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:40 am

( The word on suvaṇṇadubbaṇṇāni in 18: eight dimension of mastery )

suvaṇṇa - of good colour; beautiful (← conventional | technically should refer to perfection)
dubbaṇṇa – discoloured; ugly (← conventional | technically should refer to imperfection)

I wrote something on animitta; “...the disc is that there tend to be some parts of the painted area that is not perfected” ... from a small spot multiply in homogenious and perfected to cover whole “page” including original imperfect painted area....”. .

A re-visit on the kasina, the upper 4 of the 8 dimensions of mastery can helps one to understand this. The only explanation is there is momentariness, or else, how is it that the mind can take a small area object, duplicate it and replace the rest of the vision; and having vision of "both pretty and ugly"?

~~ metta ~~~
:anjali:

atipattoh
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by atipattoh » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:55 am

Hi Robert!
Here is another one: SN14.11. Sattadhātusutta_Seven Elements
The elements of (light, beauty)(rupa) , the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness, and the dimension of nothingness are attainments with perception. The element of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is an attainment with only a residue of conditioned phenomena. The element of the cessation of perception and feeling is an attainment of cessation.
The description is in reverse relationship, provide a dependently arising phenomena, a diversity of probability; whereby, each arising bhavanga has a tendency to bend, conditioned by the previous, on subsequent bhavanga.
By previous, it does not mean immediate previous, if it means immediate previous, then the mentality process would not allow us to jump from one subject to another.

atipattoh
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am

Re: momentariness not in sutta?

Post by atipattoh » Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:05 pm

Another visit on Sattadhātusutta; taking one dependency of arupa as example
The element of the dimension of nothingness appears due to the element of the dimension of infinite consciousness.
In the arising process, nothingness followed by consciousness. Yet the text says nothingness is conditioned by consciousness.
Such conditioned relation can occurs, only if each arupa is discrete sub-moment; ie. the 7 elements/sub-moments are discrete in nature. And for past to condition present, then the 7s are in groups.

Therefore, even thought 17 moments are present as a "train of process", they splits into 7 segments.
So if each arupa is discrete, that means that "ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ” does refer to a minute split of time in each sub-moments.

Now, it seems more logical to me for rupa and space to have overlapping domains, and that space may occurs for 14 sub-moments in each moment.

Oops!
17 moments splits into 6 effective "fusion" segments, with one dummy - streams of bhavanga. The backward relationship of dependency, does imply one thing, that streams of bhavanga is an "illusion", just a word? That "The element of the cessation of perception and feeling appears(is perceived?) due to the element of cessation".

This is how i can deduce in backward relationship,
Rupa Space <-> a perception -> not self
Consciousness <-> a perception -> no self
Nothingness <-> a perception -> no core
Neither-perception-nor-non-perception <-> only a residue of conditioned phenomena -> no essence;
just to arrive at cessation.

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