An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
Srilankaputra
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An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Greetings,

In the following sutta the Blessed one say's normal reaction to painful bodily and mental feelings is to seek an escape through sensual pleasures. But he also talks about an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. What that is, not very clear to me. Much appreciate your thoughts on this.
"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person feels feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, feelings of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. A well-instructed disciple of the noble ones also feels feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, feelings of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. So what difference, what distinction, what distinguishing factor is there between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person?"

"For us, lord, the teachings have the Blessed One as their root, their guide, & their arbitrator. It would be good if the Blessed One himself would explicate the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from the Blessed One, the monks will remember it."

"In that case, monks, listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person does not discern any escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is delighting in sensual pleasure, any passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling. As he does not discern the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then any ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it as though joined with it. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person joined with birth, aging, & death; with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is joined, I tell you, with suffering & stress.

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is not delighting in sensual pleasure, no passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling. As he discerns the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling, no ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person."


The discerning person, learned,
doesn't sense a (mental) feeling of pleasure or pain:
This is the difference in skillfulness
between the sage & the person run-of-the-mill.

For a learned person
who has fathomed the Dhamma,
clearly seeing this world & the next,
desirable things don't charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His acceptance
& rejection are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.

Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
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Volo
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by Volo »

According to the Commentary (VBB's translation):
The escape is concentration, path, and fruit. This he does not know; the only escape of which he knows is sensual pleasure.
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retrofuturist
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

This seems to relate to a certain response to painful feeling that is rooted in wisdom and equanimity.

The key to it is allowing it to be "thus" - i.e. not proliferating beyond the painful feeling, and not becoming emotionally or intellectually enmeshed in the painful feeling. You can see this expressed through the wordings and guidance in the sutta.

Not taking a stand in relation to that feeling, and not seeing it as me, mine, or I, then it too will pass, as all feelings do... and that will be that.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
santa100
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by santa100 »

SN 36.6, the Arrow Sutta is a very famous sutta where it uses the arrow simile to tell the difference between the uninstructed run-of-the-mill versus the well-instructed disciples. Basically when shot by the arrow of physical pain, an unwise person makes matters worse by piling mental anguish on top of it, just as if he had been shot by two arrows. A wise person on the other hand only feels the sting of one arrow alone (only the physical pain but no mental pain). The key difference is: "He [the run-of-the-mill] does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling." (Commentary explains: The escape is concentration, path, and fruit. This he does not know; the only escape of which he knows is sensual pleasure.)
SarathW
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by SarathW »

santa100 wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:39 am SN 36.6, the Arrow Sutta is a very famous sutta where it uses the arrow simile to tell the difference between the uninstructed run-of-the-mill versus the well-instructed disciples. Basically when shot by the arrow of physical pain, an unwise person makes matters worse by piling mental anguish on top of it, just as if he had been shot by two arrows. A wise person on the other hand only feels the sting of one arrow alone (only the physical pain but no mental pain). The key difference is: "He [the run-of-the-mill] does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling." (Commentary explains: The escape is concentration, path, and fruit. This he does not know; the only escape of which he knows is sensual pleasure.)
:goodpost: and a good question!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
paul
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by paul »

“Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. “—-SN 36.6

Note that the escape to feelings not of the flesh is achieved by knowing and experiencing the noble truth of suffering and its cause:

“Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still—if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that—he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.” — MN 14
alfa
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by alfa »

"Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure."

What does this mean, exactly? :shock:
Srilankaputra
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by Srilankaputra »

alfa wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:03 am "Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure."

What does this mean, exactly? :shock:
This is specially apparent on friday nights ,if you take drive around town. :toast: :popcorn:

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
Srilankaputra
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by Srilankaputra »

paul wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:43 am

“Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still—if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that—he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.” — MN 14
Thank you ! for this reference.

rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality= Jhana ?

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
SarathW
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by SarathW »

It says "He does not delight"
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Srilankaputra
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Volo wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:28 am According to the Commentary (VBB's translation):
The escape is concentration, path, and fruit. This he does not know; the only escape of which he knows is sensual pleasure.
Is that Ven Bodhi's translations ?

concentration = temporary escape ?
fruit = permanent escape ?

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
paul
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by paul »

Srilankaputra wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:35 am rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality= Jhana ?
“But when he has 1) clearly seen as it has come to be with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has 2) attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.”

The first part of this quote refers to insight and the second to tranquility. It is firstly essential that the practitioner understands and experiences (“clearly seen as it has come to be”) how stress arises from attachment to sensual desire. This is difficult to achieve as stress does not arise immediately, so there needs to be vigilance in observation to connect the offending action with the mind-state of suffering. A helpful concept is found in SN 47.6:
“In one who wanders in what is his proper range, his own ancestral territory, Mara gains no opening, Mara gains no foothold.”

The practitioner should be able to discern the mind-state that results when as the result of an unskillful action, they have wandered into the range of the ordinary untaught person. Mental seclusion becomes the criterion. Developing that skill is the central consideration since it is knowledge of the four noble truths, and rapture and pleasure arise from insight.
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Volo
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by Volo »

Srilankaputra wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:37 am Is that Ven Bodhi's translations ?
Yes. Although I'm not sure if it's actually a translation, may be he just put what is in the Commentary in his own words.
concentration = temporary escape ?
fruit = permanent escape ?
Seems like that.
Srilankaputra
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by Srilankaputra »

Thank you for the replies.

Wish you all success in all your endeavours. Goodbye!
JohnK
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Re: An escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure.?

Post by JohnK »

alfa wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:03 am "Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure."

What does this mean, exactly? :shock:
As you may have already surmised from subsequent posts: The uninstructed delights in sensual pleasure to escape from the painful feeling -- it's the only escape he knows.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
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