4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Manopubbangama
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4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by Manopubbangama »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:27 am

Sorry but the Buddha did not teach the 4 noble truth to all, probably to most, of his lay followers. It is not our duty as Buddhists to ponder the 4 noble truths. Its only the duty of Buddhists committed to Higher Training to ponder the 4 noble truths.
The Buddha never taught the 4 noble truths or anatta to upasakas?
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Re: Isn't this terrifying? (II)

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:28 am
DooDoot wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:27 am

Sorry but the Buddha did not teach the 4 noble truth to all, probably to most, of his lay followers. It is not our duty as Buddhists to ponder the 4 noble truths. Its only the duty of Buddhists committed to Higher Training to ponder the 4 noble truths.
The Buddha never taught the 4 noble truths or anatta to upasakas?
I can sense this may be the beginning of a whole other sutta-quoting discussion. If it is, can it please be made into a new separate topic?
But it's an interesting question, and I'd be interested in hearing the answer with suttas.
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Sam Vara
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Re: 4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by Sam Vara »

Moderator note:

Please be aware of James' request in the above post, and the section where this thread now resides. Suttas, please!

(If it doesn't work here, or if there are other non Sutta-based opinions, then we can always move it or split it again...)

:anjali:
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Re: 4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by budo »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:55 am Moderator note:

Please be aware of James' request in the above post, and the section where this thread now resides. Suttas, please!

(If it doesn't work here, or if there are other non Sutta-based opinions, then we can always move it or split it again...)

:anjali:
But Manopubbangama is the thread creator, not James.

Anyway, this is an easy argument to solve. The noble eightfold path comes from the 4th noble truth, therefore the gradual training comes from the fourth noble truth.

All of SN56 is the Buddha telling people that you should think about the four noble truths all the time.

Furthermore, there is one truth, and that one truth is expressed / broken down / diluted as the four noble truths, which is further broken down / diluted into the noble eightfold path.
“Mendicants, I’ve declared: ‘This is the noble truth of suffering.’ And there are limitless explanations, phrases, and expressions about that: ‘This is another way of saying that this is the noble truth of suffering.’ I’ve declared: ‘This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering.’ … I’ve declared: ‘This is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering.’ … I’ve declared: ‘This is the noble truth of the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.’ And there are limitless explanations, phrases, and expressions about that: ‘This is another way of saying that this is the noble truth of the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering.’

That’s why you should practice meditation …”


- SN 56.19

Furthermore, the noble truths are a conceptualization of reality, they're not gradual trainings, so they're open for anyone who can comprehend them, lay or monk is irrelevant.
“Mendicants, these four things are real, not unreal, not otherwise. What four? ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’ … These four things are real, not unreal, not otherwise.

That’s why you should practice meditation …”
- SN 56.20


I would say all the teachings in the 4 main nikayas are based on the four noble truths (and by extension the noble eightfold path). The only teachings that seem to me which are not based on the theme of the 4 noble truths/eightfold path is Pārāyana Vagga of Sutta Nipāta

https://suttacentral.net/snp-parayanavagga
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Re: 4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by Sam Vara »

budo wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:11 am
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:55 am Moderator note:

Please be aware of James' request in the above post, and the section where this thread now resides. Suttas, please!

(If it doesn't work here, or if there are other non Sutta-based opinions, then we can always move it or split it again...)

:anjali:
But Manopubbangama is the thread creator, not James.
James' request is the reason for the topic being split, and therefore for the existence of this new thread in this new section.
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Re: 4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by Manopubbangama »

budo wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:11 am
Furthermore, the noble truths are a conceptualization of reality, they're not gradual trainings, so they're open for anyone who can comprehend them, lay or monk is irrelevant.



Janussonin the brahman was a lay follower of the Buddha and was directly taught the 4 noble truths by the Buddha (among other things), so the idea of a secret, esoteric doctrine and interpretation of the Pali Canon, such as that the 4 noble truths is only for those in higher training, i.e. ones who have gone forth, has zero basis in the Suttanta.
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Re: 4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by Sam Vara »

Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:47 pm Janussonin the brahman was a lay follower of the Buddha and was directly taught the 4 noble truths by the Buddha (among other things)
Many thanks for this, Manopubbangama. :anjali:

Members who are less familiar with the Suttas will find this account in the Cula-hatthipadopama Sutta:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Are there any more?
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Re: 4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by Manopubbangama »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:40 pm
Are there any more?


Another one was Kevaṭṭa, a non-monk: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN11.html

Kevatta was very confused about what constituted the path and was still instructed in the 4 noble truths. At the end of this sutta Kevatta neither goes for refuge in the monkhood or as a layperson: this last part is interesting because another non-monk, Lohicca, hears the 4 noble truth he does go for refuge: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Meanwhile, Rosika the barber was following right behind the Blessed One and said to him, "Lord, an evil viewpoint to this effect has arisen to the brahman Lohicca: 'Suppose that a brahman or contemplative were to arrive at a skillful doctrine. Having arrived at a skillful doctrine, he should not declare it to anyone else, for what can one person do for another? It would be just the same as if, having cut through an old bond, one were to make another new bond. I say that such a thing is an evil, greedy deed, for what can one person do for another?' It would be good if the Blessed One would extract the brahman Lohicca from this evil viewpoint."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

So it seems the exact opposite of what was claimed in the posts of the poster doodoot is actually true: that the Buddha defined secretive, esoteric doctrines of the Dhamma as evil and wrong view personified and did so, all the while, edifying a layperson on the 4 noble truths (right view).....



Presuming that these lay people probably didn't gather after the Buddha's death to record the teachings, it could potentially be inferred that the Buddha was being attended by Ananda during the time that these suttas were first spoken, as Sariputta and Mogallana were both dead before the First Council, and that Ananda, who still had much work to do to become an Arahant, was focused primarily on recording with other monks who could help remember (henceforth the focus on sangha-specific material).

Does that mean that we are missing events in the Buddha's life of him telling yet more common-folk about the 4 noble truths?

I don't know for sure, but I highly doubt that anyone or any group of people could record every single thing a man said over the course of 45 long years.

But I would guess that if the 1st council had somehow gathered a larger amount of laymen and laywomen, we would have an even larger treasure trove of suttas.
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:31 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: 4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Hmm, well, it seems pretty clear from the suttas referenced above that the Buddha did teach the noble truths widely to lay followers.
When DooDoot is back online in his timezone I'd be interested in reading why he thinks the Buddha didn't. But more importantly and practically, whether lay people should ponder the noble truths.
DooDoot wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:27 am

Sorry but the Buddha did not teach the 4 noble truth to all, probably to most, of his lay followers. It is not our duty as Buddhists to ponder the 4 noble truths. Its only the duty of Buddhists committed to Higher Training to ponder the 4 noble truths.
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Re: 4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by bodom »

Not only did the Buddha teach the Four Noble Truths to householders he also encouraged them to study suttas dealing with emptiness:
At one time the Buddha was staying near Benares, in the deer park at Isipatana. Then the lay follower Dhammadinna, together with five hundred lay followers, went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him: “May the Buddha please advise and instruct us. It will be for our lasting welfare and happiness.”

“So, Dhammadinna, you should train like this: ‘From time to time we will undertake and dwell upon the discourses spoken by the Realized One that are deep, profound, transcendent, dealing with emptiness.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn55.53/en/sujato

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: 4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by DooDoot »

Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:28 amThe Buddha never taught the 4 noble truths or anatta to upasakas?
I don't recall i ever posted, wrote & said the above. Now let us review the 4th precept of honest speech:
There is the case where a certain person engages in false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty [i.e., a royal court proceeding], if he is asked as a witness, 'Come & tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I know.' If he does know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I have seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' Thus he consciously tells lies for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of a certain reward.

There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, 'Come & tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he does know, he says, 'I know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I have seen.' Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:roll:
Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:47 pmJanussonin the brahman was a lay follower of the Buddha and was directly taught the 4 noble truths by the Buddha (among other things), so the idea of a secret, esoteric doctrine and interpretation of the Pali Canon, such as that the 4 noble truths is only for those in higher training, i.e. ones who have gone forth, has zero basis in the Suttanta.
Sorry but I suggested previously it is not morality (sila) when we do not read what others write and then engage in making false allegations against others. I posted:
the Buddha did not teach the 4 noble truth to all, probably to most, of his lay followers
I never posted the Buddha never ever taught the 4 noble truths to laypeople.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: 4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by DooDoot »

budo wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:11 amAnyway, this is an easy argument to solve. The noble eightfold path comes from the 4th noble truth, therefore the gradual training comes from the fourth noble truth.
Interesting generalisations. In SN 56.11, the Buddha said the Middle-Way, which includes celibacy, is for those who left the household life.
bodom wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:18 pmNot only did the Buddha teach the Four Noble Truths to householders he also encouraged them to study suttas dealing with emptiness...
Buddhadasa used to mention this sutta but obviously Buddhadasa was wrong because this sutta is one sutta from thousands and in this sutta the laypeople replied emptiness was too difficult and then this sutta ends with non-sense how these laypeople are stream-enterers even though emptiness was too difficult for them. Personally, as evident by my comment, I am skeptical about this sutta.
Manopubbangama wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:26 pmSo it seems the exact opposite of what was claimed in the posts of the poster doodoot is actually true: that the Buddha defined secretive, esoteric doctrines of the Dhamma as evil and wrong view .....
The poster doodoot never claimed anything you claim he wrote. What dootdoot claimed is written in plain english on this forum. This said, another important matter is the Dhamma was an oral teaching therefore the Buddha taught people according to their disposition. Unlike today, there was no Buddhism in books where scholars must write what Buddhism is.
JamesTheGiant wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:39 pmWhen DooDoot is back online in his timezone I'd be interested in reading why he thinks the Buddha didn't.
Sorry but i never said the above. I recommend we avoid spreading gossip.
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:40 pmAre there any more?
There are many suttas where the Buddha taught the four noble truths to lay people but there are probably far more where he did not. Ultimately,
SN 56.11 says the 4 NTs are for monks and DN 31 says monks have the duty to teach laypeople the path to heaven. In short, every Buddhist does not have a duty to ponder the 4NTs and emptiness. :smile:

There is the impression both the old Thai monk named Buddhadasa and the current DW poster named Manopubbangama shared the same questionable & potentially harmful view, as follows:
“What should a lay person study?”

WE SHOULD NOT waste time thinking out our own answer. If anyone wants to have his own ideas, well and good, there is nothing to stop him. But if we are to answer in accordance with what the Buddha taught, then we must say, “Lay people should study all the suttantas, that is, the discourses of the Tathāgata about suññatā (emptiness).”

These suttantas are a well-organized exposition of the teaching. They constitute a good system forming the pithy substance or heart of the teaching. This is why they are called suttanta. A sutta is a “discourse” and anta means “end”. Hence, a suttanta is a dis-course that is well set out, well ordered, and the sound kernel of the subject. It is like the word vedanta. Veda is “knowledge”; vedanta is knowledge that is the pure substance of the matter, well set out and systematically arranged.

Remember this word suttanta. All the suttantas are utterances of the Tathāgata. They are what the Buddha taught and they all refer to suññatā (emptiness). In this connection, lay people ask how they are to practise Dhamma in order to achieve the most enduring benefits and happiness. The Buddha said, “The suttantas are utterances of the Tathāgata, are of great profundity, have deep significance, are the means of transcending the world, and refer to suññatā.”

This word suññatā may seem strange to you, but don’t lose heart just yet, because it happens to be the most important word in Buddhism. Please listen carefully. The word suññatā may be translated as “emptiness”. But the word “empty” has several usages and meanings. The suññatā of the Buddha does not mean physical emptiness, it is not a physical vacuum devoid of material substance. No! Here it is a case of emptiness in the sense of essential nature, because all sorts of things are still present. There can be as many objects as would fill up the whole world, but the Buddha taught that they are empty, or have the property of emptiness, because there is nothing in any of them that either is a self or belongs to a self. The aim of this is, once again, non-clinging to any thing at all. Lay people should study in particular those sayings of the Buddha that deal with suññatā. Generally, this subject has been misunderstood as too lofty for lay people. The reason for this is simply that too few people wish to practise according to these sayings of the Buddha. So please keep clearly in mind that even a lay person must study about, practise, and then discover suññatā. It is not only for bhikkhus.

I hope, then, that you lay people will no longer be afraid of the word “suññatā” or of the subject of suññatā. Take steps to increase your knowledge and understanding of it. Suññatā is a subject requiring intricate and delicate explanation; it takes a long time. For the reason, we have discussed only the actual core of the matter, just the real essence of it and that is enough, namely, emptiness of the idea of being a self or belonging to a self. If the mind realizes that there is nothing that is a self and that there is nothing that belongs to a self, the mind is “empty” and free. “This world is
empty” means just this.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books5/Budd ... udents.pdf
Last edited by DooDoot on Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:52 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: 4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by Sam Vara »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:15 am
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:40 pmAre there any more?
There are many suttas where the Buddha taught the four noble truths to lay people but there are probably far more where he did not. Ultimately,
SN 56.11 says the 4 NTs are for monks and DN 31 says monks have the duty to teach laypeople the path to heaven. :smile:
Thanks. Certainly, the 4NTs crop up far more frequently when the Buddha is addressing monks, and to the extent that they are explained to lay people, it is a "minority topic". Hence my interest in the exceptions. SN 56.11 certainly says that the 4NTs are for monks (or, at least, they are explained to mendicants who subsequently became monks) but I don't think there is evidence there that this particular teaching was only for monks.
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Re: 4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by DooDoot »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:37 am but I don't think there is evidence there that this particular teaching was only for monks.
thanks ... but I don't think there is evidence here that the poster DooDoot ever said that this particular teaching was only for monks. :mrgreen:

MN 143 has a relevant statement for this topic:
When this was said, Anathapindika the householder wept and shed tears. Ven. Ananda said to him, "Are you sinking, householder? Are you foundering?"

"No, venerable sir. I'm not sinking, nor am I foundering. It's just that for a long time I have attended to the Teacher, and to the monks who inspire my heart, but never before have I heard a talk on the Dhamma like this."

"This sort of talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth."

"In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please let this sort of talk on the Dhamma be given to lay people clad in white. There are clansmen with little dust in their eyes who are wasting away through not hearing [this] Dhamma. There will be those who will understand it."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: 4 Noble Truths, Anatta, and lay people.

Post by Sam Vara »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:41 am
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:37 am but I don't think there is evidence there that this particular teaching was only for monks.
... but I don't think there is evidence here that the poster DooDoot ever said that this particular teaching was only for monks. :mrgreen:
Indeed, nor is there evidence that I have accused you of saying that. Your expression "the 4NTs are for monks" could mean either, couldn't it? "For" can have either an exclusive or a non-exclusive use. We both seem to agree that it has a non-exclusive use here.

(Whatever your preferences with other members, there's no need to refer to yourself in the third person when talking to me, unless you really prefer it!)
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