The Gandhabba

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James Tan
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by James Tan » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:52 am

Trekmentor wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:18 am


It's wrong to say that the word had been used to mean nothing. But I'll agree with your above statement with a little bit of explanation to prevent misunderstanding. The word is not used to mean a being that travels from one place to another during the rebirth. Also, the word is not used to mean a being hanging around the father and mother during their intercourse. A being born again after finishing a prior life is what is meant by "gandhabba". There's no other speciality associated with it - like an intermediate state, intermediate form or delay in time.

Think about rubbing two pieces of wood to form fire. At a certain time, a flame would form. The flame was not there or came travelling from somewhere else before it appeared. Similarly, the term "gandhabba" does not stand for something that existed earlier in that place or came travelling from somewhere else.
FYI , imo gandhaba is a intermediate being which manifested after death and very much like astral or ghost like being and sometimes waiting for ripen conditions to take birth as a human being in the womb .
If a person after death take birth as a ghost being , unless s/he has better ripen conditions , will remains in the ghost realm due to previous ripen unwholesome deed for very long time accordingly .

If s/he has some better ripen conditions , thus only remain shorter period as astral or ghost like being (gandhaba) and will take birth asap when conditions ripen .
:reading:

Trekmentor
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by Trekmentor » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:28 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:52 am
FYI , imo gandhaba is a intermediate being which manifested after death and very much like astral or ghost like being and sometimes waiting for ripen conditions to take birth as a human being in the womb .
If a person after death take birth as a ghost being , unless s/he has better ripen conditions , will remains in the ghost realm due to previous ripen unwholesome deed for very long time accordingly .

If s/he has some better ripen conditions , thus only remain shorter period as astral or ghost like being (gandhaba) and will take birth asap when conditions ripen .
Buddhism has a profound knowledge base. There's no room for imagined stories like that.
"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

imPure Dhamma - A Lunatic's Quest to Ruin Buddha's True Teachings

James Tan
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by James Tan » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:35 am

Trekmentor wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:28 am
James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:52 am
FYI , imo gandhaba is a intermediate being which manifested after death and very much like astral or ghost like being and sometimes waiting for ripen conditions to take birth as a human being in the womb .
If a person after death take birth as a ghost being , unless s/he has better ripen conditions , will remains in the ghost realm due to previous ripen unwholesome deed for very long time accordingly .

If s/he has some better ripen conditions , thus only remain shorter period as astral or ghost like being (gandhaba) and will take birth asap when conditions ripen .
Buddhism has a profound knowledge base. There's no room for imagined stories like that.
Of course your knowledge is if only according to texts and theory . But , you might want to consider first hand experience ?!

Nevertheless , Buddha never mentioned aliens existence , do you think this is imagination also ?
:reading:

Trekmentor
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by Trekmentor » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:30 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:35 am
Trekmentor wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:28 am
Buddhism has a profound knowledge base. There's no room for imagined stories like that.
Of course your knowledge is if only according to texts and theory . But , you might want to consider first hand experience ?!
Lord Buddha had mentioned what to do about that in perfect form. As I said earlier, Buddhism has a profound knowledge base. What's available is complete, sufficient and does not require further additions. So no further suggestions, guidelines are needed for those who are into it.
James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:35 am
Nevertheless , Buddha never mentioned aliens existence , do you think this is imagination also ?
If someone wants to gain wisdom from Lord Buddha's teachings, there is a way to progress. Your way of questioning will not help. So I leave it unanswered.
"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

imPure Dhamma - A Lunatic's Quest to Ruin Buddha's True Teachings

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robertk
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by robertk » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:00 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:52 am
Trekmentor wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:18 am


It's wrong to say that the word had been used to mean nothing. But I'll agree with your above statement with a little bit of explanation to prevent misunderstanding. The word is not used to mean a being that travels from one place to another during the rebirth. Also, the word is not used to mean a being hanging around the father and mother during their intercourse. A being born again after finishing a prior life is what is meant by "gandhabba". There's no other speciality associated with it - like an intermediate state, intermediate form or delay in time.

Think about rubbing two pieces of wood to form fire. At a certain time, a flame would form. The flame was not there or came travelling from somewhere else before it appeared. Similarly, the term "gandhabba" does not stand for something that existed earlier in that place or came travelling from somewhere else.
FYI , imo gandhaba is a intermediate being which manifested after death and very much like astral or ghost like being and sometimes waiting for ripen conditions to take birth as a human being in the womb .
If a person after death take birth as a ghost being , unless s/he has better ripen conditions , will remains in the ghost realm due to previous ripen unwholesome deed for very long time accordingly .

If s/he has some better ripen conditions , thus only remain shorter period as astral or ghost like being (gandhaba) and will take birth asap when conditions ripen .
However this is the classical forum, where the ancient Theravada is given prime spot- and there is no such imaginary being in Theravafa.

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Zom
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by Zom » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:04 pm

It doesn't really make sense, if that's just it. There has to be more material.

Otherwise there is an antarabhāva. And we know that no such thing exists in Theravāda.
Orthodox theravadins don't care much about cogency in such uncomfortable doctrine cases. They just say "this is what is meant" and you must believe 8-) Same thing, for example, with 5 classes of non-returners. Also connected with antarabhava topic, btw.

James Tan
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by James Tan » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:13 pm

robertk wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:00 pm


However this is the classical forum, where the ancient Theravada is given prime spot- and there is no such imaginary being in Theravafa.
Can you explain what Ancient Theravada is ?
:reading:

whynotme
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by whynotme » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:18 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:35 am
Trekmentor wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:28 am
James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:52 am
FYI , imo gandhaba is a intermediate being which manifested after death and very much like astral or ghost like being and sometimes waiting for ripen conditions to take birth as a human being in the womb .
If a person after death take birth as a ghost being , unless s/he has better ripen conditions , will remains in the ghost realm due to previous ripen unwholesome deed for very long time accordingly .

If s/he has some better ripen conditions , thus only remain shorter period as astral or ghost like being (gandhaba) and will take birth asap when conditions ripen .
Buddhism has a profound knowledge base. There's no room for imagined stories like that.
Of course your knowledge is if only according to texts and theory . But , you might want to consider first hand experience ?!

Nevertheless , Buddha never mentioned aliens existence , do you think this is imagination also ?
The Buddha said the things he knew like leaves in the forest, and what he taught is like leaves in his hand. So there are a lot of theories and stories untold.

The problem is the kamma of the people of each era. Each era has its own interest and knowledge, and so, its own clinging. Our era is very different from the time of the Buddha. We understand how material is formed from the small scale like nanometer. We understand the very difficult concepts like space time relativity, or quantumn mechanics..

It is extremely hard to teach those concepts to people of ancient time. So people of our time demand more knowledge. And those knowledge on the other hand will help us live better by understanding nature better.

For example, for ancient people, it is better to represent material as 4 groups, fire, water, air and earth, so they can concentrate on the important matter. But for a physicist, it is much more difficult for him to put the matter aside. He needs more knowledge before he can follow the path.

This problem also happened in the time of the Buddha, as there were many kind of people. Some people only accepted dhamma after asking many question. It is their investigation. The problem is there is no scientist at the time of Buddha, so no one asked scientific question. People of our time need asking more question.

The true Buddha dhamma is nothing more than the law of nature. If we understand nature, we understand dhamma. How nature works, that is how dhamma works.
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James Tan
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by James Tan » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:47 pm

whynotme wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:18 pm


The true Buddha dhamma is nothing more than the law of nature. If we understand nature, we understand dhamma. How nature works, that is how dhamma works.
If you will explain the meaning of nature ? Isn't that the Physicist disregard the other three realms (ghost, deva and hell) ?
If we never had supernatural powers , we won't be able to confirm their existence , therefore , we cannot acknowledge that .
Just like the Mahayana said there is pureland , but , Theravada said that is something imaginary .
:reading:

whynotme
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by whynotme » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:51 pm

Trekmentor wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:30 am
James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:35 am
Trekmentor wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:28 am
Buddhism has a profound knowledge base. There's no room for imagined stories like that.
Of course your knowledge is if only according to texts and theory . But , you might want to consider first hand experience ?!
Lord Buddha had mentioned what to do about that in perfect form. As I said earlier, Buddhism has a profound knowledge base. What's available is complete, sufficient and does not require further additions. So no further suggestions, guidelines are needed for those who are into it.
James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:35 am
Nevertheless , Buddha never mentioned aliens existence , do you think this is imagination also ?
If someone wants to gain wisdom from Lord Buddha's teachings, there is a way to progress. Your way of questioning will not help. So I leave it unanswered.
It seems you underestimate other factor. I don't know how to say this in English, or how it is translated in English, so just call it "connection" or "relation".

As my own experience, even when something is written clearly in Tipitaka, but that a person doesnt have that connection, then he will ignore it completely. He just do it subconsciously. Then, if he meet another person, who will say those ides in a different words, but this time, this person suddenly get it. This is the 'connection' this person has with that person.

So even if the Lord Buddha has mentioned what to do in perfect form, if a person doesnt have that connection, he still can not get it even it stands right in front of him. This is the work of perception.
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whynotme
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by whynotme » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:58 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:47 pm
whynotme wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:18 pm


The true Buddha dhamma is nothing more than the law of nature. If we understand nature, we understand dhamma. How nature works, that is how dhamma works.
If you will explain the meaning of nature ? Isn't that the Physicist disregard the other three realms (ghost, deva and hell) ?
If we never had supernatural powers , we won't be able to confirm their existence , therefore , we cannot acknowledge that .
Just like the Mahayana said there is pureland , but , Theravada said that is something imaginary .
Nature is nature, there isnt any supernatural power, it is just nature.

For example, if we dont see magnetic field, then we don't know about it. But magnetic field is just a part of nature.

If we don't know about aerodynamics, we can not believe a ship that weight hundred ton can fly. We call it magic, or supernatural phenomena. But if we understand physics, so, there is nothing supernatural power, there is no magic, it is just nature at work.

There is no supernatural power, just nature at work. There is thing that do exist and there is thing that don't exist. So, respect nature.

If pureland exists, then it exists. If pureland doesnt exist, then it wont. Of course we can say magnetic field exists. But we can not say vibranium or adamantinum exists. Nature has the final words on what is true and what is false.
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robertk
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by robertk » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:00 pm

Samyutta 44:9 "When, Vaccha, a being has laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, I declare that it is fuelled by craving. For on that occasion craving is its fuel."

B.Bodhi:

"Spk contends that at the death moment itself the being is said to be 'not yet reborn' because the rebirth-consciousness has not yet arisen

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Dhammanando
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:19 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:30 pm
Zom wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:59 pm
So the gandhabba is something like a "virtual being" in the manner of a "virtual particle"?
As far as I understood, Commy just says that it is a dying person, that's it .)
It doesn't really make sense, if that's just it.
Why not?
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:30 pm
There has to be more material.

Otherwise there is an antarabhāva. And we know that no such thing exists in Theravāda.
Some years ago I looked up all the commentarial and sub-commentarial discussions of the gandhabba to see what ābhidhammikas identified it with when giving a paramattha exposition of the concept. Given the Classical Theravāda’s rejection of the antarābhava I was anticipating that it would be equated with either the cutting-off consciousness or rebirth-linking consciousness.

What I found, however, is that none of the accounts of the gandhabba in the Atthakathās and Ṭīkās ever take the step of identifying it with anything abhidhammic. The three glosses of the term (tatrūpagasatto, gantabbo and uppajjanakasatto) all belong just as much in the sphere of conventional truth as the term gandhabba itself.

By the way, note the correct spelling of the Pali for “intermediate state”: antarābhava. Your spelling, antarabhāva, would mean either ‘insideness’ or else would be the second person singular imperative of antarabhāveti, the causative form of antarabhavati, “to disappear”.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:41 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:19 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:30 pm
Zom wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:59 pm


As far as I understood, Commy just says that it is a dying person, that's it .)
It doesn't really make sense, if that's just it.
Why not?
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:30 pm
There has to be more material.

Otherwise there is an antarabhāva. And we know that no such thing exists in Theravāda.
Some years ago I looked up all the commentarial and sub-commentarial discussions of the gandhabba to see what ābhidhammikas identified it with when giving a paramattha exposition of the concept. Given the Classical Theravāda’s rejection of the antarābhava I was anticipating that it would be equated with either the cutting-off consciousness or rebirth-linking consciousness.

What I found, however, is that none of the accounts of the gandhabba in the Atthakathās and Ṭīkās ever take the step of identifying it with anything abhidhammic. The three glosses of the term (tatrūpagasatto, gantabbo and uppajjanakasatto) all belong just as much in the sphere of conventional truth as the term gandhabba itself.

By the way, note the correct spelling of the Pali for “intermediate state”: antarābhava. Your spelling, antarabhāva, would mean either ‘insideness’ or else would be the second person singular imperative of antarabhāveti, the causative form of antarabhavati, “to disappear”.
Thank you, Venerable. It appears that Sanskritists might have incorrectly Sanskritizatized the word, then. Antarabhāva appears in a lot of Sanskrit literature.

Abhidharmakośabhāṣya for instance spells it "antarābhāva" : kim idānīṃ tatparīkṣā eva teṣām antarābhāva āsan kuto vā tadā tebhyo gatā iti vaktavyam

The fault is mine for freely intermixing Pāli with Sanskrit, in addition to a possible error by aforementioned Sanskritists.
Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:19 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:30 pm
Zom wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:59 pm
As far as I understood, Commy just says that it is a dying person, that's it .)
It doesn't really make sense, if that's just it.
Why not?
If the gandhabba isn't an intermediate being, or intermediate state of being, what else would it be?

Hence my comment about virtual particles.

A photon, for instance, is not a particle. It has no mass. But it is referred to as a particle for the sake of convenience of language when referred to it and dealing with it in general.

It seems it's just something mysterious, then?

I am interested in what you mean by "The three glosses of the term (tatrūpagasatto, gantabbo and uppajjanakasatto) all belong just as much in the sphere of conventional truth as the term gandhabba itself." Do you mean to say that a gandhabba is conventional in the way that a "being" is conventional?

Even that seems odd to me, because that seems to imply a conventional intermediate state, but not an ultimate intermediate state, whatever that would mean. It is an absurd proposal, so obviously I am not interpreting correctly.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

Manopubbangama
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by Manopubbangama » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:53 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:29 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:49 pm
The person who seems most fascinated by the gandhabba is the creator of the puredhamma website. He is a physicist and a Buddhist: https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/me ... -evidence/
I don't think this link belongs in the Abhidhamma forums.
Manopubbangama wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:49 pm
That being said, as a good scholar, he does site a very good source for making us think that perhaps there are indeed something to his hypothesis: https://suttacentral.net/an10.211/pli/ms
He is not a good scholar of Buddhism, his dhamma website is full of misinformation spread by the Waharaka sect, of which he is an ardent member.
I didn't know he had been discussed by anyone here prior.

Do you have links to get me up to speed?
"They too, beholding the Buddha — Kinsman of the sun, mighty and fearless — salute him from afar: 'Homage to thee, who art unique among mankind; glory to thee, the highest among men.' - DN 32

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