The Gandhabba

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:27 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:53 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:29 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:49 pm
The person who seems most fascinated by the gandhabba is the creator of the puredhamma website. He is a physicist and a Buddhist: https://puredhamma.net/living-dhamma/me ... -evidence/
I don't think this link belongs in the Abhidhamma forums.
Manopubbangama wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:49 pm
That being said, as a good scholar, he does site a very good source for making us think that perhaps there are indeed something to his hypothesis: https://suttacentral.net/an10.211/pli/ms
He is not a good scholar of Buddhism, his dhamma website is full of misinformation spread by the Waharaka sect, of which he is an ardent member.
I didn't know he had been discussed by anyone here prior.

Do you have links to get me up to speed?
Turns out I mistook the Classical Theravāda subforum for the Abhidhamma subforum.

The long thread in "Non-English Resources" is currently serving as this forum's proselytization base for the Waharaka sect.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

James Tan
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by James Tan » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:56 am

I think the fundamental question is , how does the bhava fit into the scenario , where, upon death , and before actual birth taking place !?
Then, perhaps we might be able to answer with regard to antarabhava query .
:reading:

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Dhammanando
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:29 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:41 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:19 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:30 pm
It doesn't really make sense, if that's just it.
Why not?
If the gandhabba isn't an intermediate being, or intermediate state of being, what else would it be?
In sammutisacca, a non-arahant who has just died. In paramatthasacca, I would suppose it to be the paṭisandhi-viññāṇā. Not that the commentaries explicitly say so, but this seems to me the only plausible candidate, given: (1) the account of consciousness entering the womb in the Mahānidānasutta, (2) the Theravāda’s rejection of antarābhava, and (3) what is predicated of the paṭisandhi in Visuddhimagga ch. XVII 158-173.
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:41 pm
I am interested in what you mean by "The three glosses of the term (tatrūpagasatto, gantabbo and uppajjanakasatto) all belong just as much in the sphere of conventional truth as the term gandhabba itself." Do you mean to say that a gandhabba is conventional in the way that a "being" is conventional?
Yes. Assuming ‘gandhabba’ to be a term whose referent would have been understood by the Buddha’s listeners (an audience of unconverted brahmins in the Assalāyanasutta and the goofball Sāti in the Mahātaṇhāsankhayasutta) to be a living being rather than a dhamma, then the said referent would be a paññatti, not a dhamma, and as such would belong within the sammuti field of discourse.

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DooDoot
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by DooDoot » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:07 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:29 am
the account of consciousness entering the womb in the Mahānidānasutta
Venerable Dhammanando

Is there something in the Pali that makes it unambiguously certain the consciousness mentioned in DN 15 is a disembodied external consciousness (searching for new parents) rather than the consciousness of the mother? :shrug:
Viññāṇañca hi, ānanda, mātukucchismiṃ na okkamissatha, api nu kho nāmarūpaṃ mātukucchismiṃ samuccissathā”ti?

If consciousness were not to descend/enter into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?

Viññāṇañca hi, ānanda, mātukucchismiṃ okkamitvā vokkamissatha, api nu kho nāmarūpaṃ itthattāya abhinibbattissathā”ti?

If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"
Since DN 15 immediately moves to a discussion about "delineating a self", my impression is the consciousness descending into the mother's womb is the consciousness of the mother; from which she gives name to the form that is her baby & then delineates self in respect to the baby.

auto
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by auto » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:47 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Sustained by/clinging to the six properties, there is an alighting of an embryo. There being an alighting, there is name-&-form.
consciousness can be a nutriment for being or being what is on a way of becoming a being.
These are the six properties: earth-property, liquid-property, fire-property, wind-property, space-property, consciousness-property.
btw in contemplation you move all sorts things in body, a mere thought will release liquids, pressures will pressure hot air to rise.. whatever.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

intellectual intention as nutriment, wouldn't that be a link id DO, a volition
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks, there are these four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second; intellectual intention the third; and consciousness the fourth. These are the four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born.
that being is "you", you got to even spot it,

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"And how, lord, is one a person who has fathomed the Dhamma?

"One sees with right discernment, lord, that 'this has come into being.' Seeing with right discernment that 'this has come into being,' one is — through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance — released from what has come into being.
and get to know what nutriment is the cause for that being to arise. As of it is when you sit and contemplate then there is a intent to move change position, if you stop feeding that nutriment then you get liberated, released and can move on to next point.
One sees with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment.' Seeing with right discernment that 'it has come into being from this nutriment,' one is — through disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, through lack of clinging/sustenance — released from the nutriment by which it has come into being.
Aggregates what are clingable. Its where the self view rises, and self view abandoned will reveal sense of self(perhaps its clingable feeling layer), that is to be cultivated to get a descent of a embryo, that is supernatural, not regular embryo.

From gross food up to consciousness, risng in ranks. Form, feeling, perception layers are filled with still not liberated beings. Liberation means you know how to go from support to support, that is nutriment to nutriment, like monks are doing their alms round, you also need tell dhamma if requested, that also is done in contemplation doing rounds within your body.

auto
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by auto » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:04 pm

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... suttam.htm
“Tesaṁ vohaṁ vyakkhissaṁ,” Vāseṭṭhā ti Bhagavā,
“I will explain this to you,” said the Gracious One to Vāseṭṭha,

“anupubbaṁ yathātathaṁ,
“in order, as it really is,

jātivibhāgaṁ pāṇānaṁ, aññamaññā hi jātiyo. [7]
a classification of the species of living beings, for the species are different.
Tiṇarukkhe pi jānātha, na cāpi paṭijānare,
Understand plants and trees, although they do not acknowledge it,

liṅgaṁ jātimayaṁ tesaṁ, aññamaññā hi jātiyo. [8]
their sign is of their own species, for the species are different.

Tato kīṭe paṭaṅge ca, yāva kunthakipillike,
Then arthropods and grasshoppers, 17 up to ants (and other) insects,

liṅgaṁ jātimayaṁ tesaṁ, aññamaññā hi jātiyo. [9]
their sign is of their own species, for the species are different.

Yathā etāsu jātīsu liṅgaṁ jātimayaṁ puthu,
Just as in these species the sign of the species is various,

evaṁ natthi manussesu liṅgaṁ jātimayaṁ puthu, [14]
so in humans there is no sign that the species is various,
difference is in designation
Paccattaṁ ca sarīresu, manussesvetaṁ na vijjati,
There is divergence in bodies, but in humans this (divergence) is not found,

vokārañ-ca manussesu samaññāya pavuccati. [18]
the difference in humans is through designation it is said.
Yo hi koci manussesu gorakkhaṁ upajīvati,
Whoever amongst humans makes his living protecting cattle,

evaṁ Vāseṭṭha jānāhi: kassako so na brāhmaṇo. [19]
know it thus, Vāseṭṭha: he is a farmer and not a brahmin.
Na cāhaṁ brāhmaṇaṁ brūmi yonijaṁ mattisambhavaṁ,
I do not call one a brahmin simply because of being born from the womb of a (certain) mother,

bhovādī nāma so hoti sace hoti sakiñcano,
that is just one who says ‘bho’ 26 if he is attached,

akiñcanaṁ anādānaṁ, tam-ahaṁ brūmi brāhmaṇaṁ. [27]
having nothing and unattached, that one I say is a brahmin.
Yassa gatiṁ na jānanti, devā gandhabbamānusā,
For the one whose destiny is unknown to gods, gandhabbas and men,

khīṇāsavaṁ arahantaṁ, tam-ahaṁ brūmi brāhmaṇaṁ. [51]
destroying pollutants, worthy, that one I say is a brahmin.
Dīgharattam-anusayitaṁ, diṭṭhigatam-ajānataṁ,
Lying latent for a long time, this false view of the ignorant,

ajānantā no pabruvanti jātiyā hoti brāhmaṇo. [56]
indeed only the ignorant say one is a brahmin by birth.


Na jaccā brāhmaṇo hoti, na jaccā hoti abrāhmaṇo,
One is not a brahmin by birth, nor by birth is one not a brahmin,

kammanā brāhmaṇo hoti, kammanā hoti abrāhmaṇo. [57]
by deeds one is a brahmin, by deeds one is not a brahmin.
Kammanā vattati loko, kammanā vattati pajā,
By deeds the world goes round, by deeds this generation goes round,

kammanibandhanā sattā, rathassāṇīva yāyato. [61]
beings are bound fast by deeds, as chariots roll on their linchpin.
through austerity
Tapena brahmacariyena, saṁyamena damena ca,
Through austerity, celibacy, restraint and control,

etena brāhmaṇo hoti, etaṁ brāhmaṇam-uttamaṁ. [62]
through these one is a brahmin, this is the brahmin supreme.
coro pi kammanā hoti, yodhājīvo pi kammanā,
by deeds one is a robber, by deeds one is a soldier,

yājako kammanā hoti, rājā pi hoti kammanā. [59]
by deeds one is a cleric, by deeds one is a monarch.

Evam-etaṁ yathābhūtaṁ kammaṁ passanti paṇḍitā,
Thus the wise, seeing this deed as it really is,

paṭiccasamuppādadasā, kammavipākakovidā. [60]
seeing conditional origination, are skilled in deeds and results.
Tīhi vijjāhi sampanno, santo khīṇapunabbhavo,
Endowed with the three knowledges, peaceful and with rebirth destroyed,

evaṁ Vāseṭṭha jānāhi, Brahmā Sakko vijānatan.”-ti [63]
know thus, Vāseṭṭha, that one is Brahmā and Sakka to those who know.” 44
deed seem important ingredient of defining who you are.

So, when mother and father + being what is about to born, that being is born of deed. What deed? sexual intercourse. Maybe some other place can born by different deed. No it isn't the coming together of these three is descent of a embryo

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"'Yes, master, we know how there is the descent of an embryo. There is the case where the mother & father have come together, the mother is fertile, and a gandhabba [the being about to be reborn] is standing present. The coming together of these three is the descent of the embryo.'
looks like the being what is about to born through female womb is a being what is near were the intercourse is happening. Thus it can be your dead relative or the pig you ate.

couples i suggest if want get angel being then do it on church perhaps there are some mighty beings who like to enter womb.

auto
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by auto » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:40 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"No, Master Gotama. Even a noble warrior... Even a brahman... Even a merchant... Even a worker... (Members of) all four castes — if they refrain from taking life, from stealing, from sexual misconduct, from telling lies, from speaking divisive speech, from harsh speech, & from idle chatter, are not greedy, bear no thoughts of ill-will, & hold to right view — on the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in the good destination, the heavenly world."
obviously there is world after break up of this body..then also why not can't be there a being what enters wombs, and also so called walk-ins who make contract t oswitch places, the former will "die" and the being from heaven will enter.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Gandhabba

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:17 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:29 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:41 pm
Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:19 pm


Why not?
If the gandhabba isn't an intermediate being, or intermediate state of being, what else would it be?
In sammutisacca, a non-arahant who has just died. In paramatthasacca, I would suppose it to be the paṭisandhi-viññāṇā. Not that the commentaries explicitly say so, but this seems to me the only plausible candidate, given: (1) the account of consciousness entering the womb in the Mahānidānasutta, (2) the Theravāda’s rejection of antarābhava, and (3) what is predicated of the paṭisandhi in Visuddhimagga ch. XVII 158-173.
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:41 pm
I am interested in what you mean by "The three glosses of the term (tatrūpagasatto, gantabbo and uppajjanakasatto) all belong just as much in the sphere of conventional truth as the term gandhabba itself." Do you mean to say that a gandhabba is conventional in the way that a "being" is conventional?
Yes. Assuming ‘gandhabba’ to be a term whose referent would have been understood by the Buddha’s listeners (an audience of unconverted brahmins in the Assalāyanasutta and the goofball Sāti in the Mahātaṇhāsankhayasutta) to be a living being rather than a dhamma, then the said referent would be a paññatti, not a dhamma, and as such would belong within the sammuti field of discourse.
Thank you, that is all very interesting. If I might wonder, with gandhabba as paññatti or mere designation, and similar signs like "satta (in the sense of sattva)", etc., also as paññatti or mere designation (this is a guess, I really have no ever studied Pāli Abhidhamma, I assume it is the case? Is this a poor assumption?), then it complicates the narrative of "Theravāda doesn't believe in an antarābhava." Inasmuch as there is a satta, or a gandhabba, there is the paññatti that we use all the same, regardless of if it is as unfindable as an attā.

Am I understanding paññatti correctly? Thank you for your time.

Or perhaps it would be better to say that the Theravāda traditionally teach that there is or there would be "no time" so-to-speak, in an antarābhava, and as such it can't exist (I don't know if they would formally argue this, I am just drawing this as a possible conclusion leading why there can't be, and 'isn't an antarābhava'), but there is nonetheless a convenience of language to refer to the participation of the to-be-born, despite this not really being something that even "exists" in the same way that the beings mating do, assuming that that is indeed the case.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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