Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

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fornoxe
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Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by fornoxe » Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:31 am

Hello everyone

I know, my title is a bit disturbing but I would lile your light on this view.

As my own experiencre, I realize all dukkhas comme from ego. Monkey mind, I, identity.

so if I stop thinking I will realize nibana (or very good way).

That why anapanasati is here. To help and train the mind (discipline it). And the mental or thought start to be less and less "strong" until extinction. (That also the top of upanishad yoga : dharana).

Bouddha spoke about this extinction. And to reach that we have tl follow jhanas for exemple in pa auk.

But even anapanasari is usefull for training mind, my idea about stopping "I" is stopping thinking.

So in my meditation, first I push myself to stop thinking. Its hard but sometime I can go more 3 4 minuts. And if I reach 3 4 minuts my mind become more calm and easier to control. And after 20 30 minuts if I am still without think I release totally my "push". And I feel something I cannot find world. Maybe transparancy happiness. But I feel so good at this time I can not control my brain more than 5 10s.... like OMG that so good. Hooo its lost ^^

I have another meditation technics (from my own think) : with my eyes looks a black spot on wall (one monk told me to start working with white kasinas but I want first to improve concentration). And listening river sound. Or listening my feet walking.

Please give me advice and your idea. With sutta its better. Be nice :)

I am not fluent english. Sorry for that

Mettaphysic

paul
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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by paul » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:24 pm

That idea is expressed in this sutta, but it is the result of a step by step process of perception. The practitioner cannot overleap the preceding stages:

"Now what do you think, Potthapada — have you ever before heard of such an alert step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception?"

"No, lord. And here is how I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One: 'When the monk is percipient of himself here, then from there to there, step by step, he touches the peak of perception. As he remains at the peak of perception, the thought occurs to him, "Thinking is bad for me. Not thinking is better for me. If I were to think and will, this perception of mine would cease, and a grosser perception would appear. What if I were neither to think nor to will?" So he neither thinks nor wills, and as he is neither thinking nor willing, that perception ceases and another, grosser perception does not appear. He touches cessation. This, Potthapada, is how there is the alert step-by step attainment of the ultimate cessation of perception.'"

"That's right, Potthapada.”
______________________
First stage:
"This is how a monk is consummate in virtue...

"Seeing that these five hindrances have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated.

"Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases.”---DN 9
Last edited by paul on Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DooDoot
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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by DooDoot » Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:48 am

fornoxe wrote:
Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:31 am
So in my meditation, first I push myself to stop thinking. Its hard but sometime I can go more 3 4 minuts. And if I reach 3 4 minuts my mind become more calm and easier to control. And after 20 30 minuts if I am still without think I release totally my "push". And I feel something I cannot find world. Maybe transparancy happiness. But I feel so good at this time I can not control my brain more than 5 10s.... like OMG that so good. Hooo its lost ^^
Buddhist practise is to control the mind or the brain. When the happiness comes, the brain or thinking must be controlled, which is the Step 8 of Anapanasati:
(5) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti [rapture] I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing piti I shall breathe out.

(6) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing sukha [happiness] I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing sukha I shall breathe out.

(7) He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner [thinking effect of rapture & happiness] I shall breathe in. He trains himself: thoroughly experiencing the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.

(8) He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner [thinking effect of rapture & happiness] I shall breathe in. He trains himself: calming the mind-conditioner I shall breathe out.

Anapanasati Sutta

fornoxe
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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by fornoxe » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:26 am

For me its as hard to do anapanasati as no thinking (or signless) meditation. Really. I tried to compare so many time!
That why I can not see the valuable things on anapanasati.


I thank anapasatI he's useful for reach first jhana.

And signless meditation reach to something as animitta. But I could not understand that properly.

Something interresting : even without thought, I have still the feeling of "I". that mean my signless meditation is not deep enough? Maybe.

Another things interresting (at least for me) : I feel the kind of electricity in my mind after 20min without though. And I put back my focus to kind of wash my brain. Very hard to explain because i am not eenglish speaker. Like you scan you body to feel something in goenka tradition, I scan my brain not to feel but to remove any kind of activity. its when I feel no activity at all something happen. Maybe I can reach heart beating also.

I will go in mahasi tradition monastery to improve my step by step working but alone... go straigh to no thinking mind.

And during this time ... when I am in deep state of meditation its like feeling emptiness and its peaceful state. Hard to explain.

Anyway : cheers for reply and talking

fornoxe
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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by fornoxe » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:27 pm

Any one else want to add something?

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budo
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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by budo » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:46 pm

I don't understand your post and request clearly, but the nibbana element makes itself more clear the more hindrances, fetters, and defilements you suppress and remove.

It all starts with suppressing the unwholesome mental factors (Sankaras) through understanding impermanence leading to disenchantment and dispassion. You can see the dependent origination leading to nibbana here https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... 7.html#sut

If you do not become dispassionate then anything you attain like Jhanas will not be permenent and you will revert back to your old self. So that's why I see the path in two stages 1) getting to non-return 2) getting to nibbana.

Your first goal should be getting to non-return.

So as you can see the average person is stuck in suffering stage in dependent origination. If they don't learn the dhamma and practice then they will die and repeat the cycle.

However someone who practices the path goes like this in dependent origination:

suffering -> fatih in buddha dhamma -> sukha & piti -> concentration -> knowledge and vision -> disenchantment -> dispassion -> liberation -> destruction of defilements -> nibbana

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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by dylanj » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:13 am

At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis there is a support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there is the production of future renewed existence. When there is the production of future renewed existence, future birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

“If, bhikkhus, one does not intend, and one does not plan, but one still has a tendency towards something, this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis, there is a support for the establishing of consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.

“But, bhikkhus, when one does not intend, and one does not plan, and one does not have a tendency towards anything, no basis exists for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is no basis, there is no support for the establishing of consciousness. When consciousness is unestablished and does not come to growth, there is no production of future renewed existence. When there is no production of future renewed existence, future birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.”
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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cappuccino
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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:40 pm

dylanj wrote:When consciousness is unestablished
And so consciousness remains

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Zom
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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by Zom » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:07 pm

so if I stop thinking I will realize nibana (or very good way).
No you will not.

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cappuccino
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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:44 pm

it would seem thinking is crucial somehow

actually it doesn't matter so much

what matters is reading the scriptures

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one_awakening
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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by one_awakening » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:15 am

budo wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:46 pm
suffering -> fatih in buddha dhamma -> sukha & piti -> concentration -> knowledge and vision -> disenchantment -> dispassion -> liberation -> destruction of defilements -> nibbana
I like this a lot, but doesn't destruction of defilements occur before liberation?
“You only lose what you cling to”

SamKR
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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by SamKR » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:59 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:40 pm
dylanj wrote:When consciousness is unestablished
And so consciousness remains
No. I think that this is a wrong conclusion based on half a sentence of the translated sutta which itself could possibly be an inaccurate translation.

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budo
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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by budo » Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:01 am

one_awakening wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:15 am
budo wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:46 pm
suffering -> fatih in buddha dhamma -> sukha & piti -> concentration -> knowledge and vision -> disenchantment -> dispassion -> liberation -> destruction of defilements -> nibbana
I like this a lot, but doesn't destruction of defilements occur before liberation?
I was thinking the same, that's what the sutta says. Maybe it's liberation from desire (aka non-return) and then the nibbana element is developed further leading to arahantship. You can see mahamogallana struggle with this in the suttas, he mastered jhanas and supernormal powers but didn't attain nibbana, so he would telepathically question annurddah while annurradah was developing the nibbana element.

auto
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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by auto » Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:54 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
..
"Thinking has the perceptions & categories of objectification[1] as its cause, has the perceptions & categories of objectification as its origination, has the perceptions & categories of objectification as what gives it birth, has the perceptions & categories of objectification as its source. When the perceptions & categories of objectification exist, thinking comes into being. When the perceptions & categories of objectification are not, it doesn't."
1.
Objectification = papañca. The tendency of the mind to proliferate issues from the sense of "self." This term can also be translated as self-reflexive thinking, reification, falsification, distortion, elaboration, or exaggeration. In the discourses, it is frequently used in analyses of the psychology of conflict. The categories of objectification stem from the self-reflexive thought, "I am the thinker," (see Sn 4.14), and include the categories of inappropriate attention (see MN 2): being/not-being, me/not-me, mine/not-mine, doer/done-to. The perceptions of objectification include such thoughts as "This is me. This is mine. This is my self." These perceptions and categories turn back on the person who allows them to proliferate, giving rise to internal conflict & strife, which then expand outward. For more on these terms, see MN 18.
"And how has he practiced, dear sir: the monk who has practiced the practice leading to the right cessation of the perceptions & categories of objectification?"

"Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.[2] Grief is of two sorts: to be pursued & not to be pursued. Equanimity is of two sorts: to be pursued & not to be pursued.

"'Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities increase, and skillful mental qualities decline,' that sort of joy is not to be pursued. When one knows of a feeling of joy, 'As I pursue this joy, unskillful mental qualities decline, and skillful mental qualities increase,' that sort of joy is to be pursued. And this sort of joy may be accompanied by directed thought & evaluation or free of directed thought & evaluation. Of the two, the latter is the more refined. 'Joy is of two sorts, I tell you, deva-king: to be pursued & not to be pursued.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
..
it seem you simply can't stop thinking, there is practice leading to the right cessation of the perceptions and categories of objectifications. And if these won't exist thinking doesn't come into being.

"Deva-king, do you recall ever having previously experienced such happiness & joy?"

"Yes, lord, I do."

"And how do you recall ever having previously experienced such happiness & joy?"

"Once, lord, the devas & asuras were arrayed in battle. And in that battle the devas won, while the asuras lost. Having won the battle, as the victor in the battle, this thought occurred to me: 'Whatever has been the divine nourishment of the asuras, whatever has been the divine nourishment of the devas, the devas will now enjoy both of them.' But my attainment of happiness & joy was in the sphere of violence & weapons. It didn't lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge to self-awakening, to Unbinding.
But my attainment of happiness & joy on hearing the Blessed One's Dhamma is in the sphere of no violence, the sphere of no weapons. It leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge to self-awakening, to Unbinding."

https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... matika.htm
Dassanena pahātabbā dhammā 08
Thoughts that are to be given up through vision (of the First Path)

Bhāvanāya pahātabbā dhammā 09
Thoughts that are to be given up through development (of the rest of the Paths)

Neva dassanena na bhāvanāya pahātabbā dhammā
Thoughts that are to be given up neither through vision (of the First Path) nor through development (of the rest of the Paths)
Dassanena pahātabbahetukā dhammā
Thoughts that have roots that are to be given up through vision (of the First Path)

Bhāvanāya pahātabbahetukā dhammā
Thoughts that have roots that are to be given up through development (of the rest of the Paths)

Neva dassanena na bhāvanāya pahātabbahetukā dhammā
Thoughts that have roots that are neither to be given up through vision (of the First Path) nor through development (of the rest of the Paths)

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cappuccino
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Re: Stop thinking as extinction (nibana) ? Shortcut meditation?

Post by cappuccino » Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:48 pm

SamKR wrote:
Sat Nov 10, 2018 4:59 am
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:40 pm
dylanj wrote:When consciousness is unestablished
And so consciousness remains
No. I think that this is a wrong conclusion based on half a sentence of the translated sutta which itself could possibly be an inaccurate translation.
there is more to this than that

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