Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

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zerotime
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by zerotime » Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:38 pm

robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:28 pm
Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya .
please, Can you clarify the source of those texts explaining there are only padaparama and neyya?

It sounds very contradictory with the previous quote:
"The next 1,000 years there will be "bare insight" arahants. The next 1,000 years there will be anagamin (non-returners). The next 1,000 years there will be sakadagamin (once returners) and the next 1,000 years there will be sotapanna (stream enterers). "
one text explain the Dhamma degeneration would go to favour the type of people suitable for jhana practice, however the other text explain the mastery of jhanas will be the first type to dissapear :shock: (?)


very grateful if you can give the source about in present times there are only padaparama and neyya. Thanks :)

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by theY » Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:43 pm

There are nothing conflict between pāli canons. It is the reader's fail, again.

If you can understand all my view, 99.99% of pāli canons are completely perfectly compatible with each others. Let's see:
zerotime wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:38 pm
one text explain the Dhamma degeneration would go to favour the type of people suitable for jhana practice, however the other text explain the mastery of jhanas will be the first type to dissapear :shock: (?)
very grateful if you can give the source about in present times there are only padaparama and neyya. Thanks :)
Volovsky wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:51 pm
In Aṅ.A. (manoratha.1) ekadhammādipālivaṇṇanā antaradhānakathā, there is the explanation:
...Eteneva upāyena anāgāmino sakadāgāmino sotāpannāti...
(Please, read the full text from above link. This is just my explanation. It is not translation directly:)

My explanation for antaradhānakathā: After paṭisambhidā-arahanta finished at 1000 BE, then chalabhiñña-arahanta finished, then tevijja-arahanta, then sukkhavipassaka-arahanta at 2000 BE. Then it is the same cycle: paṭisambhidā-anāgāmi finished, then chalabhiñña-anāgāmi finished, then tevijja-anāgāmi, then sukkhavipassaka-anāgāmi at 3000 BE. Then it is the same cycle for sakadāgāmi at 4000 BE, and sotāpanna at 5000 BE.

By this way nothing, is conflict anymore.

For more information to complete all of case for the finish of buddhism (in thai language): https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2P ... 76mGFC/pub
robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:35 am
The explanation for you is writing, please wait.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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zerotime
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by zerotime » Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:49 pm

theY wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:43 pm
There are nothing conflict between pāli canons. It is the reader's fail, again.

If you can understand all my view, 99.99% of pāli canons are completely perfectly compatible with each others. Let's see:
In Aṅ.A. (manoratha.1) ekadhammādipālivaṇṇanā antaradhānakathā, there is the explanation:
...Eteneva upāyena anāgāmino sakadāgāmino sotāpannāti...
(Please, read the full text from above link. This is just my explanation. It is not translation directly:)

My explanation for antaradhānakathā: After paṭisambhidā-arahanta finished at 1000 BE, then chalabhiñña-arahanta finished, then tevijja-arahanta, then sukkhavipassaka-arahanta at 2000 BE. Then it is the same cycle: paṭisambhidā-anāgāmi finished, then chalabhiñña-anāgāmi finished, then tevijja-anāgāmi, then sukkhavipassaka-anāgāmi at 3000 BE. Then it is the same cycle for sakadāgāmi at 4000 BE, and sotāpanna at 5000 BE.

By this way nothing, is conflict anymore.
theY, I'm sorry if I don't explain enough my point. I don't try to say that there is a contradiction due to a lack of confirmation in comments about the second issue (about the disappearance of arhants according types).

I try to point to the possible contradiction between the disappearance of disciples according their type, and the arhants according their type.

In one quote, we find how the disciples suitable for sukkhavipassaka are the first to dissappear. However, in the other quote we find the sukkhavipassaka-arahants are the later to dissapear. How to conciliate this disappearance of qualities in an opposite order?.


- the quote about disciples explain the first degeneration is for the vipassana qualities needed for the sukkhavipassaka cultivation (no more disciples ugghalitaññu and vipañcitaññū; with penetration of the Dhamma at the very time when it is being taught, and penetration of the Dhamma when the meaning of what has been taught in brief is later analysed in detail)

- the other quote on arhants explain the inverse thing: these qualities are the later to dissappear.

Hope now I explain my point better. I put together both quotes:
"Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya ."
----
"In his commentary, Buddhaghosa eventually increases the life of the sasana to 5,000 years. During the first 1,000 years, he says, there will be arahants with the four analytical knowledges. The next 1,000 years there will be "bare insight" arahants. The next 1,000 years there will be anagamin (non-returners). The next 1,000 years there will be sakadagamin (once returners) and the next 1,000 years there will be sotapanna (stream enterers). Adding these figures together, we find that the pa?ivedha (realization or penetration of the Dhamma) will last for 5,000 years."


How do you understand that apparent contradiction?


Btw Robert, inside Netti the 746 belongs to the "The Trefoil mid Hook" section, in where corruption of different person types is explained by other factors without mention of historical time. In example:

"742. Corruption for those four types of persons is as follows: the four nutriments, four perversions, four assumings, four bonds, four ties, four taints, four floods, four barbs, four steadying-points for consciousness, and four goings on a bad way (see §674)."

What's the source of that historical degeneration you mention?

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by theY » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:49 pm

zerotime wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:49 pm
...
theY, I'm sorry if I don't explain enough my point.
...
"Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya ."
...
...
How do you understand that apparent contradiction?
...
What's the source of that historical degeneration you mention?
Actually, I have to say sorry for my poor reading.

For the answer of what you asked by the history:

Robertk derived that view from neab&sujin&nina, who were in thai buddhist dark age. They had not many teachers to teach them in that dark age, so they read tipitaka by themselves without pali knowledge and with lacking abhidhamma knowledge. Therefore, Buddha said "1st-8th jhāna are basis of vipassanā", they said "only khanika-samādhi is basis of jhāna". They try to cross the step. They against jhāna-meditation for whole life, so everything look very hard for them to attain or to enlighten. According to what I described on this topic, the way that neab&sujin&nina chosen is avoiding to meditate the basis of vipassanā.

It sounds like the stupid student say "I am a stupid, so I don't have pay much concentration on the practicing-lesson. I can cross some lesson because I am a stupid. After I crossed some lesson, I will graduate the first-class honors faster as alike as the genius."

But the fact is the stupid student must pay very very much concentration on the practicing-lesson step by step. If they cross some step, they will graduate later and later than the genius. Crossing the step is not the faster way to graduate the first-class honors for the stupid student.

If you have been in a. sujin's school before, you may know how much her school's environment looks like the anti-jhāna-meditation school.

A. neab was a. sujin past teacher. A. sujin is miss nina's teacher.
Last edited by theY on Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by theY » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:18 am

A. neab was a. sujin past teacher. A. sujin is miss nina's teacher.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by zerotime » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:48 pm

well, my question was addressed to know the text source of dissappearence of ugghalitaññu and vipañcitaññu as Robert quoted.
And also to know why the lost of these qualities seem to go in opposite direction depending comments on arhants or disciples.

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by theY » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:26 am

zerotime wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:48 pm
well, my question was addressed to know the text source of dissappearence of ugghalitaññu and vipañcitaññu as Robert quoted.
And also to know why the lost of these qualities seem to go in opposite direction depending comments on arhants or disciples.
I understand you. Your replies above are good.

I just try to let him understand all rightly. Many view of him derived from thai tradition, so there are many place of pāli canons lacking each others in his thai tradition opinions. Therefore, I have to let him see many new aspects, evidences. And I have to show that how my quotes relate each others without the conflicts.

I try to let him see whether there are nothing of pali canons is conflict, except thai tradition.

It is not competition. No one win if it is argument, but we all win together, if we can relate pāli canons together without any conflict for meditation.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:12 am

zerotime wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:38 pm
robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:28 pm
Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya .
please, Can you clarify the source of those texts explaining there are only padaparama and neyya?

It sounds very contradictory with the previous quote:
"The next 1,000 years there will be "bare insight" arahants. The next 1,000 years there will be anagamin (non-returners). The next 1,000 years there will be sakadagamin (once returners) and the next 1,000 years there will be sotapanna (stream enterers). "
one text explain the Dhamma degeneration would go to favour the type of people suitable for jhana practice, however the other text explain the mastery of jhanas will be the first type to dissapear :shock: (?)


very grateful if you can give the source about in present times there are only padaparama and neyya. Thanks :)
I must be missing something. You say the "one text explain the Dhamma degeneration would go to favour the type of people suitable for jhana practice". Which text and why do you say that?

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:23 am

theY wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:43 pm

My explanation for antaradhānakathā: After paṭisambhidā-arahanta finished at 1000 BE, then chalabhiñña-arahanta finished, then tevijja-arahanta, then sukkhavipassaka-arahanta at 2000 BE. Then it is the same cycle: paṭisambhidā-anāgāmi finished, then chalabhiñña-anāgāmi finished, then tevijja-anāgāmi, then sukkhavipassaka-anāgāmi at 3000 BE. Then it is the same cycle for sakadāgāmi at 4000 BE, and sotāpanna at 5000 BE.

By this way nothing, is conflict anymore.

Tell me about these patisambhidha-sotapanna . Is that in the texts or your own thoughts?

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:38 am

zerotime wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:38 pm
robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:28 pm
Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya .
please, Can you clarify the source of those texts explaining there are only padaparama and neyya?

From the Aṅguttara Nikāya 4.133:
Bhikkhus, these four persons are evident in the world. What four?

The one with a flashing insight, the one with established knowledge, the one to be led along and the one who is limited to the word.

Bhikkhus, these four persons are evident in the world.
And the Puggala-Pannatti:
1. What sort of person is quick in acquiring (Ugghàtitannu)?
The person who comprehends the doctrine at the time of its pronouncement is said to be quick in acquiring.
2. What sort of person learns by exposition (Vipancitannu)?
The person to whom comprehension of the doctrine comes when the meaning of what is briefly uttered is analysed in detail.
3. What sort of person is one who may be led (Neyya)?
The person to whom comprehension of the doctrine comes by recitation, questioning, and earnest attention and by serving, cultivating and waiting upon lovely friends is one who may be led.
4. What sort of person is one with whom the word is the chief thing (Padaparama)?
The person to whom comprehension of doctrine would not come in this life, however much he may hear and say and bear in mind or recite, is said to be one with whom the word is the chief thing.


[/quote]
From Ledi Sayadaw https://www.budsas.org/uni/u-37bd/37bd-e00.htm
After the passing of the first thousand years (of the present Buddha Sàsana), which constituted the times of the Patisambhidhà-patta Arahant (Arahant possessing Analy-tical Knowledge), the period of the present Buddha Sàsana comprises the times of the Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals alone. At the present day, only these two classes of individuals remain.

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by theY » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:45 pm

robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:23 am
theY wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:43 pm
... (paṭisambhidā) sotāpanna at 5000 BE...
By this way nothing, is conflict anymore.
Tell me about these patisambhidha-sotapanna . Is that in the texts or your own thoughts?
There are many text reference to what I said at all, you can ask for them as much as you want. I can deconflict almost everything from pāli canons. I born to be the deconflictor. I just want to see the buddhist people's unity, love and support each other to enlighten nibbāna. I know I look so overconfidence. Actually, I am confident just in what on my hand. If you teach me english grammar, I will be not confident at all. I can't say "trust me" because I am just a lay ordinary, but I can say "trust Pa-Auk". Even though some of Pa-Auk's teachers can't answer your question like I can, all of them can teach you "howto enlighten" exactly. They are tipiṭaka-memorizer who meditate both jhāna and vipassanā. I confirmed.

KN Paṭisambhidāmagga by sāriputta-mahāsāvaka is the canon which teaching "how to enlighten nibbāna as nobel one", not only paṭisambhida-arahanta. So, it's atthakathā said:
Although, the ordinary person memorized many buddha's teaching, he is not paṭisambhidapatti. However, every noble one is paṭisambhidapatta only.

...Bahumpi uggahetvā pana puthujjanassa paṭisambhidāppatti nāma natthi, ariyasāvako no paṭisambhidāppatto nāma natthi...
In Vinaya.A. (samanta.1) Nidānakathā:
.. People can reprove mahākassapa-thera "There are many asekha-asekhapaṭisambhidā, why mahākassapa-thera choose bh. Ānanda who is just sekha-paṭisambhidappattā?"...

"bahū asekhapaṭisambhidappatte bhikkhū ṭhapetvā ānandaṃ sekhapaṭisambhidappattaṃ thero uccinī"ti upavadeyyuṃ
In Sutta Pitaka Vol 27 : Abhi. Vibhaṅgo paṭisambhidāvibhaṅgo:
{790.2} Tisso paṭisambhidā siyā ācayagāmino siyā
nevaācayagāminonaapacayagāmino atthapaṭisambhidā siyā
Ācayagāminī siyā apacayagāminī siyā nevaācayagāminīnaapacayagāminī .
Tisso paṭisambhidā nevasekkhānāsekkhā atthapaṭisambhidā
siyā sekkhā siyā asekkhā siyā nevasekkhānāsekkhā.
Above show sekkha's paṭisambhidā to us directly. Another in Sutta Pitaka Vol 32 : Abhi. Pa.(1) Paṭṭhānaṃ kusalattikaṃ upanissayapaccayo:
[544] Kusalo dhammo kusalassa dhammassa
upanissayapaccayena paccayo ārammaṇūpanissayo
anantarūpanissayo pakatūpanissayo.
...
maggo sekkhānaṃ atthapaṭisambhidāya
dhammapaṭisambhidāya niruttipaṭisambhidāya
paṭibhāṇapaṭisambhidāya ṭhānāṭhānakosallassa
upanissayapaccayena paccayo.
Maggakusala is upanissayapaccaya of sekkha's kusala as upanissayapaccaya. But for arahanta it must be "asekkha's abyakata", because arahanta don't have mahākusalacitta.

The other previous questions' answers are in progress.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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zerotime
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by zerotime » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:49 pm

robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:38 am
I must be missing something. You say the "one text explain the Dhamma degeneration would go to favour the type of people suitable for jhana practice". Which text and why do you say that?
because if we look to the case of arhants, the jhana-arhants are the first to disappear while bare-insight arhants are the later ones. Then it shows how the qualities needed for jhana and pañña cultivation are lost in an inverse order of what happens with the rest of noble ones.

Then, Don't you see the contradiction?. Because note if we talk on Dhamma the degeneration cannot be referred to "persons" but to mind qualities. It is from these mind qualities from where arise types of disciples and arhants.

The text from Ledi Sasyadaw is problematic at least to me. Although I have read similar things in A.Sujin texts. This assumption seem to be natural to the Abhidhamma world.

L.Sayadaw says about the Ugghàtitannu:

"an Ugghàtitannu (one who understands immediately) is an individual who encounters a Buddha in person [1] "

however in the footnote [1] it says: "This is not mentioned in the canonical texts referred to above, and their commentaries. (Ed.)"

So, From where arose that conclussion?

The Ugghàtitannu type (like the rest) was created using Suttas episodes in where some individuales were awakened in an instant way by hearing a teaching directly from the Buddha. However, we miss (at least I have never founf) any justification inside the Suttas to claim those individuals only existed at Buddha times. It seems to be a later assumption.

The Vipancitannu type still seem to be more problematic because there is zero explanation to know the sources justification for their supposed absence in present times.

robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:38 am
From the Anguttara Nikaya 4.133:
Bhikkhus, these four persons are evident in the world. What four?
The one with a flashing insight, the one with established knowledge, the one to be led along and the one who is limited to the word.
Bhikkhus, these four persons are evident in the world
here maybe is interesting using also the B.Bodhi translation:

"Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of persons found existing in the world. What four?
One who understands quickly; one who understands through elaboration; one who needs to be guided; and one for whom the word is the maximum.
These are the four kinds of persons found existing in the world [831]"


because according meanings and Sutta sources, perhaps some mixture of both sounds better:

"Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of persons found existing in the world. What four?
One with immediate insight; one who develop insight through analysis; one who needs to be guided; and one limited by the words.
These are the four kinds of persons found existing in the world [831]"


also the footnote 831 of B.Bodhi tr. is quite long and useful because he remains more focused in those mind qualities.


The source to attribute a time-degeneration of these qualities and the exclusive existence of Ugghatitannu and Vipancitanna to Buddha encounters or past times seem to be rooted in the Vs. This is shared by the different Abhidhamma approaches we have. One can read this old assumption in Layadaw or A.Sujin.

In my humble view, until today I cannot believe it. I believe these commentaries are part of an old historical effort to fit the direct-pañña approaches (so-called direct, sudden, instant, dry.. etc) because these have not been easily understood and wellcomed historically. An effort to keep a better settlement of Dhamma in the world because world reasons. The "noisy disciples" (dhammayoga) from AN 6.46 who remained invisible in the rest of the Canon are perhaps the first episode of a long historical way of difficulties for these direct approaches, and this arrive to present times. The jhanas cultivation soon was considered more complete and preferable for the world, and we would see this reflection also in the Abhidhamma.

Although this would be a problem with the world, not with the Dhamma. The Buddha had another view as we read inside AN 6.46:


"Then there is the case where jhana monks praise only jhana monks, and not Dhamma-devotee monks. In that, the jhana monks do not shine brightly, and the Dhamma-devotee monks do not shine brightly. That is not practicing for the welfare of the masses, for the happiness of the masses, for the good of the masses, nor for the welfare & happiness of human & divine beings."


I wonder about our present times of compulsive minds, quite difficult to seat and calm. Maybe those old assumptions on qualities today sounds like a self-built, self-fulfilled prophecy. Today there are not Ugghatitannu, Vipancitannu and sukkha-vipassana because some strange degeneration or because this was made practically invisible like an unicorn.

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:01 pm

because if we look to the case of arhants, the jhana-arhants are the first to disappear while bare-insight arhants are the later ones. Then it shows how the qualities needed for jhana and pañña cultivation are lost in an inverse order of what happens with the rest of noble ones
what do you mean in inverse order?

All Ugghàtitannu and Vipancitannu must also have mastery of jhana. For some of them it happens ( the mastery)almost instantly during the processes leading to arahatship- like with vakkali.They are rare and wonderful and only arise near the time of the Buddha. not anymore.

The sukkha-vipassaka is a much inferior being in this regard. He attains, yes, but doesn't have the amazing accumulations of the patisambhidha arahant.

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:07 pm

here is an account by a monk in the Mahasi group, who also seems to regard the attaining of jhana as difficult.Although I have a few issues with the article, on the point we are discussing it might be useful.

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebmed020.htm

There are two approaches in the practice of meditation. The first approach is called samatha yanika. Those meditators who follow this approach practise initially by using concentration, or tranquillity, as a base. This means they practise pure tranquillity meditations like kasinas, visualisations; asubhas, meditations on loathsomeness of the body. There are forty such objects enumerated in the Visuddhimagga. They usually practise until they have reached an established state: At least to upacara samadhi, or to any of the jhanas, the blissful absorptions. When they are established here, they go further and practise vipassana.

The second type of approach is suddha vipassana yanika, the pure insight practice. Here the meditators do not go through any pure tranquillity meditation practices; neither going into the respective access concentration (called upacara jhana) nor the fixed concentration (called appana jhana). They go directly into the contemplation of mind and matter
and
When I was there many years ago, I asked them, "Why don't you teach me samatha? I also want to learn samatha." They said: "Vipassana is more important. After you have established vipassana well then you can do all the samatha you want." The reason is that most people do not have so much time to practise. Even if you're a monk, it doesn't mean you have all the time to practise. You get involved with other things. The important thing is that while there is the sasana period we learn what we can and as much as we can in vipassana. From what we understand, the concentration in an intensive retreat in vipassana is usually able to carry a person forward for a long time. Therefore, the emphasis here is on vipassana. As a lay person has even less time than a monk he should practise what is most important. Also according to our understanding, it is rather difficult to practise samatha successfully. Moreover, it may take some time if you are required to attain the jhanas. The object must be suitable and you also must have the potential
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zerotime
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by zerotime » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:23 pm

robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:01 pm
All Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu must also have mastery of jhana. For some of them it happens ( the mastery)almost instantly during the processes leading to arahatship- like with vakkali.They are rare and wonderful and only arise near the time of the Buddha. not anymore.
from what source you extract the Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu should have the mastery of jhanas?

Ugghatitannu is a label for disciples who attain nibbana just by hearing a teaching, in an immediate way. Vipancitannu is the disciple who attain nibbana by reflecting in a teching previouly heared. To be stream-enterers or arhants, it doesn't care.

In fact in other places are labels applied to disciples when still are developing the path:

"Bodhisattvas also become threefold at the moment they form the aspiration, according to their division into those who comprehend through a condensed teaching (ugghatitannu), those who comprehend through an elaborated teaching (vipancitannu), and those who are capable of training (neyya)."
http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20pe ... nsight.htm

Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu are not labels for arhants or the mastery of jhanas. If you take that idea from commentaries, please check the sutta references for these claims.
The sukkha-vipassaka is a much inferior being in this regard. He attains, yes, but doesn't have the amazing accumulations of the patisambhidha arahant.
sukkha-vipassaka is not inferior or superior. It is a name for somebody cultivating the so-called bare-insight or dry-insight:

"one supported by bare insight" [...] "His insight is dry, rough, unmoistened by the moisture of tranquillity meditation."
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_ ... assaka.htm

it means somebody who is not practicing jhanas but he/she is focused in wisdom (panna).

Note both ugghatitannu and vipancitannu are sukkha-vipassaka disciples. By its own definition, the ugghatitannu doesn't need a guide because he is awakened in an instant way just by hearing the teaching. He don't need of a guide. Same happens with vipancitannu, who maybe need some teachers to clarify the Dhamma but later he doesn't need a guide to attain nibbana.

Both ugghatitannu and vipancitannu are the type of disciple suitable for bare-insight, while neyya and paddana are more suitable for the jhana cultivation. Why?. Because there are not practices to practice understanding. It would be an absurdity: something is understood or not. In fact, both ugghatitannu and vipancitannu only can be labeled "a posteriori" subsequently from its success regarding nibbana. However, there are practices of jhanas which is the type of cultivation which needs of a guide (then for neyya).
what do you mean in inverse order?
we read in these comments how the disciples suitables for bare-insight are the first to disappear, while at same time the arhants arising from bare-insight are the later to dissapear. Don't you see this?. It's about forgetting there are mind characteristics instead "persons". In my previous messages I have explained this point

Previously you says "inferior" reagarding bare-insight and arhants. I believe there is a confussion if we start from the exclusive abhidammic scenary. Inside the texts we can check there is not any exclusive "right way" by choosing between jhanas or panna cultivation. This old discussion it is just a wrong view. It doesn't belongs to Buddha teaching because the Buddha did not invent the investigation of nama-rupa neither the cultivation of jhanas. Both things existed before the Buddha times, and Himself was a cultivator of both when still he was Siddharta:

check here:
"Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, before my Awakening, when I was just an unawakened Bodhisatta [...]. "the thought occurred to me, 'This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther
SN 12.65
and here:
"I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion.
MN.36
therefore, both styles of cultivation (bhavana) existed before Buddha times. None is the exclusive "right way" of the Buddha. The Buddha accepted disciples who were cultivators of jhanas, of wisdom, or just those ready to start from zero. The Buddha was a definitive master in all the ways to attain the truth, nibbana, by jhanas or by wisdom. And He explained the wrong view of misunderstanding the different types of arhants with "inferior and superior" arhants:
"Then there is the case where jhana monks praise only jhana monks, and not Dhamma-devotee monks. In that, the jhana monks do not shine brightly, and the Dhamma-devotee monks do not shine brightly."
AN 6.46
if we agree the arhanthood is the complete liberation without more fetters to erradicate, then the different arhants with their different knowledges and attributes are just our seeing of the different ways of arhants to be in relation with the world. One arhant liberated by wisdom don't miss nothing to be realized. And the same happens with an arhant liberated from jhanas. Or for those liberated in both ways. All arhants are free of defilements and craving, and their knowledges and powers are just a way to be in relation with the world.

In the same way that one person can inherit 8 dresses while other person inherits only 3. Both are solved and happy because they avoid the cold forever. The second person could ask: "Why I wouldn't need so many dresses?". One person will use more dresses than the other one, and that's all.
It is our craving to the world what pushes to us to imagine superior and inferior arhants depending of the power to act in our own delusion. But beyond our delusion only remains a description.

Nibbana is only one, the same nibbana for the stream enterer or for the ubhatobhaagavimutta arahant or the same Buddha.

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