Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

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theY
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by theY » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:17 am

robertk wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:00 am
I met Santi when he was a monk , and then later, about 20 years ago after he disrobed. He seemed to have a detailed pali knowledge but we disagreed on some points.
Is he back in robes?
Yes, he is about 13 vassa this years.

His memory is incredible, but his pāli still lack, because he addicts thai translation version. It is the barrier, when we try to talk about the delicate topics, such as what we, you and I, are talking.
The jhanalabhi is the most amazing, skilled wonder of the Buddha's disciples. It is also the type that must be the rarest.
1. When you read SN. pavāraṇāsuttaṃ, you have to analysis all of word. According to abhidhamma logic, no noble one enlighten nibbāna without lokuttara appanā-jhāna. So, all noble one already got appanā-jhāna. So, the full text of pavāraṇāsuttaṃ is "It is not all lokuttara-jhānalābhī have attained lokiya-jhāna before. Just a few of them enlighten as ubhatobhāgavimutti, however, they all are lokuttara-jhānalābhī" But it doesn't mean "A few noble one is appanā-jhānalābhī" because actually they all attained nonreturnable lokuttara appanā-jhāna.

2. Don't forget isi (outsider practitioner) can do jhāna as well. So, when you compare sukkhavipassaka's lokuttara-appanā-jhānalābhī with appanā-jhānalābhī (both lokiya&lokuttara), which one is bigger amount? Is it appanā-jhānalābhī (because all sukkhavipassaka is appanā-jhānalābhī as well), right?

3. According to abhidhamma, both lokiya and lokuttara jhāna has the same sampayutta-dhamma, and the same appanā. The difference is about viratī&appamaññā-cetasika arising (=actually no difference), possibility of unwholesome-anusaya arising, and object. Sukkhavipassaka's lokuttara-appanā-jhāna-attaining is harder than lokiya-jhāna-attaining because lokuttara-appanā-jhāna-attaining can cessation unwholesome-anusaya arising, and can access to insight nibbāna-object.

4. So, if I say "To be sukkhavipassaka is easier than to be appanā-jhānalābhī", is it right? You will answer "no", right?

Why sukkhavipassaka have more than ubhatobhāgavimutti?

The answer is the same as "why the only-one-time-appanā-jhānalabhī have more than the five-vasī-patta-jhānalābhī?" We all know the professors must have fewer than the only graduated students from the university. Moreover, some possible-to-be-professors don't try to be a professor. So, the member of sukkhavipassaka have larger because the five-vasī-patta-jhānalābhī have fewer than the only-one-time-appanā-jhānalabhī. It is not because lokiya-jhāna-attainment is harder than enlightenment because the enlightenment is appanā as well. It the same hard. Actually, all appanāpatti is the same hard. That is the reason that why the lokiya-jhānalābhī can enlighten nibbāna easier than the never-attained-any-jhāna-person. But if I understand like you I will misunderstand "the never-attained-any-jhāna-person must can enlighten nibbāna easier than the lokiya-jhānalābhī", because you wrote:
It is also the type that must be the rarest.
But the fact is no-lokiya-jhāna-attained-appanāmaggaphala-sotāpanna is rarer because only the insider of buddhism can meditate anattā-anupassanā. So the only-one-time&multiple-time-lokiya-appanā-jhānalabhī have more than no-lokiya-jhāna-attained-appanāmaggaphala-sotāpanna. And the other noble one have fewer and fewer than that one.

So, what you quoted form kasiṇa niddesa will conflict with Sutta. Ma. U. Dakkhiṇāvibhaṅgasuttaṃ, etc. But if you understand like me, there's nothing conflicted anymore.

5. By all above reasons, don't let your past teachers' misunderstood make you conflict tipiṭaka. Let's understand through tipiṭaka like a professor. You are not a historian, why you have try to conflict tipiṭaka like them? It is no reason, right?

6. In the past, tipitaka and atthakathā normally admire jhana meditating, even thai forest monk tradition. Nowadays, buddhist practitioners normally disagree with the buddha's sabbaññutañāṇa. They try to avoid jhāna meditation, and ancient study system. They go around the world without tipiṭaka on their mouth, then say what they want to say. Then what is the reason that they should be supported by u-Pa-Auk, who is the jhāna&vipassanā practitioner, piṭaka-memorizer, and teacher of piṭaka memorizer.

I can say I never success in samatha meditation at all. But I can't discredit jhana meditating, because when I try to do, tipiṭaka conflict themselves immediately. I can deconflict netti. I can deconflict tipiṭaka. So, I have no any reason to discredit tipiṭaka. I have no reason to let them conflict each other. My reason which I showed you have more evidences enough to say "pāli canons never conflict each others, but the readers misunderstood themselves. If they memorize and meditate follow whole tipitaka step by step, tipiṭaka will never conflict each other anymore".

7. You should trust the tipiṭaka-memorizer who denied jhāna or you should trust the jhāna-attainer who is the teacher of many jhāna attainers and many tipitaka memorizers? Do you remember what visuddhimagga advise us in kammaṭṭhānaggahanakatha?

8. I am addicting tipiṭaka since when I was 16 years old. Although I have been sujin's students, u-mahāsī-student's practitioner, and archān nab's listener, and bh. santi's student. I stop, except bh.santi and pa-auk, to be at all because when I try to memorize sutta pāli and learn more netti&atthakathā, I found they often let tipitaka and atthakathā conflict each other. But when I tried to memorize and prove their words, I found they were misunderstood. So, I choose tipiṭaka first. After I could understand&can deconflicted tipitaka, I found pa-auk. I knew they are right because I ask them the tipiṭaka question that never have anyone give me the right answer. And they can answer at all.

9. My monk friend who graduated from MIT, abhidhammist, vinaya-sticker, and have been santi's student like me he went to meditate with pa-auk and said "pa-auk teacher taught like they know his mind".

10.You can request all evidences from me, I can answer all question and can give you all evidences with the explanation base on many other evidences. PaAuk maybe can not because this topic is not important for them.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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robertk
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:20 am

8. I am addicting tipiṭaka since when I was 16 years old. Although I have been sujin's students, u-mahāsī-student's practitioner, and archān nab's listener, and bh. santi's student
we have much in common, as I spent months at wat Boonkunjanaram in 1989, 1990, where acharn Naeb had taught ( and died).
(because all sukkhavipassaka is appanā-jhānalābhī as well), right
As I understand it sukkavipassaka are not jhanalabhi.
Nina van gorkom translated part of a commentary:
the commentary to Aane~njasappaaya sutta (MN 106) it is said:
Uparipannasa-Atthakatha 4.67

Samaapatti.m taava pada.t.thaana.m katvaa vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa


When he has made the attainment of jhana the proximate cause of
insight and increased vipassana,

arahatta.m ga.nhanto bhikkhu naava.m vaa u.lumpaadiini vaa nissaaya

and he attains arahatship, the bhikkhu who is as it were depending
on a boat or a raft

mahogha.m taritvaa paara.m gacchanto viya na kilamati.

crosses the great flood and reaches the other side, is not tired.
==========================

The above is the path of the great ones of the past who attained
arahatship using mundane jhana as basis. These are the highest type
of arahant. Below is the path of the Sukkhavipassaka- the very
lowest type of arahant.

[
QUOTE
i]Sukkhavipassako pana paki.n.nakasa'nkhaare sammasitvaa arahatta.m
ga.nhanto[/i]

But the person with dry insight who has thoroughly known the
particular conditioned dhamma and attains arahatship,

baahubalena sota.m chinditvaa paara.m gacchanto viya kilamati.

after he has as it were cut the stream with much force and reaches
the other side, is tired.
___
Bhikkhu Bodhi gives some other notes from the commentary of this
sutta (M.106):

In the sutta Ananda asks the Buddha, "a bhikkhu is practising
thus: 'If it were not it would be mine; it will not be and it will
not be mine. What exists, what has come to be, that I am
abandonding. Thus he attains equanimity. Venerable sir , does such a
one attain Nibbana?."......The note by bodhi (1021)from Majjima
attahakatha, "Anandas question is intended to elicit from the Buddha
an account of the practice of the dry-insight meditator
(sukkhavipassaka) who attains arahatship without depending on a
jhanic attainment."

Sutta "This is deathless, namely the liberation of mind through not
clinging" note 1023 Majjhima atthakatha says that the arahstship of
the dry- insight meditator (sukkhavipassaka) is intended.""
++++++++
Robert

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robertk
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:20 am

we need to remember that the distinction between mundane and lokuttara jhana.
Even the sukkavipassaka ( dry insight worker) has , for a moment) the lokuttara jhana.


. There is always some degree of concentration.
In the Atthasalini -I use The expositor PTS (translator : maung tin).
P58. Triplets in the Matika
"'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall."

"..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth
"


It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e akusala AND kusala. It notes that the way leading to dispersion is the Ariyan path (eightfactored path). There is then several chapters (total of 140 pages) that gives much details about the various types of kusala (wholesome consciousness). The last two chapters in this section explain all the different types of "MUNDANE" Jhanas.

The start of the next chapter is interesting: this is where it discusses the eight-fold path. The Discourse on LOKUTTARA (transcendental).



"
He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momentary flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes
[includes kusala such as giving as well as all levels of "mundane" jhana]"

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robertk
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:27 am

More on why mastery of jhana is not required for developing the path.
In the Commentary to the Susima sutta by Buddhaghosa it says
Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
Why is this said? For the purpose
of showing the arising of
knowledge thus even without concentration.
This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
(samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
without
previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
(vipassanayanika
)..."

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robertk
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:07 am

9. My monk friend who graduated from MIT, abhidhammist, vinaya-sticker, and have been santi's student like me he went to meditate with pa-auk and said "pa-auk teacher taught like they know his mind"
I wonder if I know him. what is his name?

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Volovsky
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by Volovsky » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:26 pm

Few thoughts about "jhāna as prerequisite for vipassana" issue if we look form the Pa-Auk system point of view (the way I understand it).

Before practicing vipassana one has first to acquire two preliminary knowledges: #1) Knowing nāma-rūpa and #2) Apprehending dependent origination. According to Pa-Auk (and probably also Vism., since Pa-Auk is strongly based on it) for the #1) One has to see nāma-rūpa with the eye of wisdom. In particular, for rūpa, to see not only rūpa-kalāpā (of which Mahasi system is aware, as I understand) but also 4 elements and 24 derived materiality, which "constitute" the kalāpā (and this is not just feeling hardness, heaviness, etc).

For the 2nd knowledge one should be able to see how conditions from the previous life have created the present nāma-rūpa, and how conditions from this life will created the future life nāma-rūpa. And this goes for many past and future lifes.

After one has acquired these two knowledges, they will teach vipassana. So, if one can do all this without jhāna - perfect: he/she can practice vipassana. If one has all 8 jhānas, but cannot do 1), 2): this person cannot practice vipassana yet. So, jhāna-issue is in a way irrelevant from this point of view.

theY
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by theY » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:37 pm

robertk wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:20 am
8. I am addicting tipiṭaka since when I was 16 years old. Although I have been sujin's students, u-mahāsī-student's practitioner, and archān nab's listener, and bh. santi's student
we have much in common, as I spent months at wat Boonkunjanaram in 1989, 1990, where acharn Naeb had taught ( and died).
By history: All your quotes came from people who never have the experience of jhāna-attaining, most of them also are not tipitaka-pāli-memorizers. Some of them, nina&sucin&neab, came from the dark age of thai buddhism. Some of them are lacking in pāli skill, more than bh. santi. While Thai forest tradition--bh. Mun, & Burma forest tradition-- Pa-Auk, teach the same method, but nina&sucin&neab teach the difference. Because they have the same ancient study system, but nina&sucin&neab have the new study system. Actually, they have no ability enough to be teachers according to VN Bhikkhunovādaka-skiihāpada.

That's why they often let pāli canons conflict each others.
robertk wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:20 am
(because all sukkhavipassaka is appanā-jhānalābhī as well), right
As I understand it sukkavipassaka are not jhanalabhi.
You never memorize tipitaka because sujin never advise you to memorize it. Although, my quote in the previous reply has already shown that both mundane-jhāna-person and supermundane-jhāna-person are "appanā-jhānalābhī". I also described by abhidhamma as well. But you don't care all of those pāli quotes, which have "lābha" word directly. And you quote everything of your teachers which nothing relate "lābha" word to deny my direct quote of "lābha" word. Why?

We talk about "appanā-jhānalābhī". I quoted supermundane-jhāna-person to you. And you deny it by everything that have not "lābhī" word. Why?

Because A.Sujin, Miss Nina, A. Neab are not proficient of pāli. So, they taught you without pāli memorizing directly. So, now you don't know the actual using of pāli word in tipitaka&atthakathā, i.e. lābhī word in tipiṭaka, etc.

robertk wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:20 am
we need to remember that the distinction between mundane and lokuttara jhana.
Even the sukkavipassaka ( dry insight worker) has , for a moment) the lokuttara jhana.
All of your quotes have nothing say lokuttara jhana person is not appanā-jhānalābhī.

Actually, aṭṭhasālinī described about the difference of lokiya jhāna and lokuttara jhana, because they both have many same aspects. Aṭṭhasālinī didn't try to say " lokuttara jhana person is not appanā-jhānalābhī like you are trying".

Don't be just copy the text to argue like A.Sujin's students always do, but you have to understand all of them clearly. I quoted & describe about sutta, because I have trying to memorize sutta. I quoted pāli, because I can translate&understand pāli. I described about jhāna&abhidhamma because I have already do the research of jhāna in tipitaka&atthakathā and I already prove my research with the professors of jhāna, such as Pa Auk and Thai forest monks.

So, all of your quotes have nothing say lokuttara jhana person is not appanā-jhānalābhī.

Another, I have already told you about the difference of lokiya jhāna and lokuttara jhana and it is same of what you quote from atthasālinī:
theY wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:17 am
3. According to abhidhamma, both lokiya and lokuttara jhāna has the same sampayutta-dhamma, and the same appanā. The difference is about viratī&appamaññā-cetasika arising (=actually no difference), possibility of unwholesome-anusaya arising, and object. Sukkhavipassaka's lokuttara-appanā-jhāna-attaining is harder than lokiya-jhāna-attaining because lokuttara-appanā-jhāna-attaining can cessation unwholesome-anusaya arising, and can access to insight nibbāna-object.
It means "I have already proved what you quoted to me before you give me that text". And all evidence, especially pāli and abhidhamma, indicate that "lokuttara jhana person is appanā-jhānalābhī."

You can qoute everything but you can't distort the pāli I quoted. By my description, all your quotes are not conflict with my quotes. But by your description, your quotes conflict each others. And they conflict with my quotes as well.

Why you addict to keep conflict go on like A. Sujin often does. She still can't deconflict the subject "Anusaya Arising Or Not", right? So, she still deny the contact back of bh. Santi, right? But I can deconflict between Burma's anusaya and Bh. santi's anusaya.

Don't keep the conflict going on. I give you links of pāli to deconflict what you are confusing. Memorize those pāli. The only way to deconflict the subjects is memorize before argue.

It doesn't fair that I already known all what you quote. But you never know what I quote for you. How can we understand each other if we still remember the difference?
robertk wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:27 am
More on why mastery of jhana is not required for developing the path.
In the Commentary to the Susima sutta by Buddhaghosa it says
Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
Why is this said? For the purpose
of showing the arising of
knowledge thus even without concentration.
This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
(samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
without
previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
(vipassanayanika
)..."
ํYou still quoted what you are not clearly understand because you quote follow A.Sujin&A.Neab. You don't understand what I described "who can be sukkhavipassaka, and who can not be". So, you try to distort me like I deny sukkhavipassaka. So you quoted susimasutta's atthakathā to claim that I ] deny sukkhavipassaka.

But actually I never deny sukkhavipassaka. You can see in this article: Howto count down for enlightenment follow the end of mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta?

A.sujin never know what I described above, but Pa-Auk know, and ancient thai forest monks teach their students follow that link as well.
robertk wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:07 am
9. My monk friend who graduated from MIT, abhidhammist, vinaya-sticker, and have been santi's student like me he went to meditate with pa-auk and said "pa-auk teacher taught like they know his mind"
I wonder if I know him. what is his name?
I don't think you know him because he ordained together with bh. santi in 2006.
Last edited by theY on Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

theY
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by theY » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:54 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:26 pm
Few thoughts about "jhāna as prerequisite for vipassana" issue if we look form the Pa-Auk system point of view (the way I understand it).

Before practicing vipassana one has first to acquire two preliminary knowledges: #1) Knowing nāma-rūpa and #2) Apprehending dependent origination. According to Pa-Auk (and probably also Vism., since Pa-Auk is strongly based on it) for the #1) One has to see nāma-rūpa with the eye of wisdom. In particular, for rūpa, to see not only rūpa-kalāpā (of which Mahasi system is aware, as I understand) but also 4 elements and 24 derived materiality, which "constitute" the kalāpā (and this is not just feeling hardness, heaviness, etc).

For the 2nd knowledge one should be able to see how conditions from the previous life have created the present nāma-rūpa, and how conditions from this life will created the future life nāma-rūpa. And this goes for many past and future lifes.

After one has acquired these two knowledges, they will teach vipassana. So, if one can do all this without jhāna - perfect: he/she can practice vipassana. If one has all 8 jhānas, but cannot do 1), 2): this person cannot practice vipassana yet. So, jhāna-issue is in a way irrelevant from this point of view.
That's right. However, you shouldn't say "Pa-Auk system point of view" because it is sāriputta's point of view in paṭisambhidāmagga dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaniddesa:
paccayasamuppannāti paccayapariggahe paññā dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ.
[98] Purimakammabhavasmiṃ moho avijjā āyuhanā saṅkhārā nikanti taṇhā
upagamanaṃ upādānaṃ cetanā bhavo ime pañca dhammā purimakammabhavasmiṃ
idha paṭisandhiyā paccayā idha paṭisandhi viññāṇaṃ okkanti nāmarūpaṃ
pasādo āyatanaṃ phuṭṭho phasso vedayitaṃ vedanā ime pañca dhammā
idhupapattibhavasmiṃ pure katassa kammassa paccayā idha paripakkattā
Āyatanānaṃ moho avijjā āyuhanā saṅkhārā nikanti taṇhā
upagamanaṃ upādānaṃ cetanā bhavo ime pañca dhammā idha
kammabhavasmiṃ āyatipaṭisandhiyā 1- paccayā āyatipaṭisandhi viññāṇaṃ
okkanti nāmarūpaṃ pasādo āyatanaṃ phuṭṭho phasso vedayitaṃ
vedanā ime pañca dhammā āyatiṃ upapattibhavasmiṃ idha katassa
kammassa paccayā iti ime catusaṅkhepe tayo addhe vīsatiyā
ākārehi tisandhiṃ paṭicca samuppādaṃ jānāti passati aññāti
paṭivijjhati taṃ ñātaṭṭhena ñāṇaṃ pajānanaṭṭhena paññā tena
vuccati paccayapariggahe paññā dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ.
Be careful, when you quote about Pa Auk, because most of their words come from tipiṭaka and atthakathā. Don't let people think Pa Auk sayadaw make his own system. Because when the Pa-Auk againsters argue with your quote, it means they argue with tipiṭaka. Although, they don't know the actual origin, it is dangerous for them.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Volovsky
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by Volovsky » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:17 am

theY wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:54 pm
That's right. However, you shouldn't say "Pa-Auk system point of view" because it is sāriputta's point of view in paṭisambhidāmagga

Be careful, when you quote about Pa Auk, because most of their words come from tipiṭaka and atthakathā. Don't let people think Pa Auk sayadaw make his own system. Because when the Pa-Auk againsters argue with your quote, it means they argue with tipiṭaka. Although, they don't know the actual origin, it is dangerous for them.
Yes, Pa-Auk Sayadaw is very careful with the sources and the whole theory, which is taught in Pa-Auk is definitely traceable in the ancient texts. But since I have read Vism only partly and Patisambhida not at all, I refer to the source I have gotten the information from, namely books/Dhamma talks of Pa-Auk Sayadaw. Moreover, in some systems (e.g. Mahasi) they interpret Vism differently, therefore I tell it is Pa-Auk to avoid misunderstandings. Although I personally am more confident with Pa-Auk Sayadaw's understanding.

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:02 am

theY: the blunt indriya have to study 2 characteristics first, to open their mind for samatha&vipassanā meditation. So, buddha have to teach these 2 vipassanā for the blunt indriya first, such as in Sutta. Saṃ. Kha. Vakkalisutta. Vakkali had understood 2 characteristics after buddha taught him about buddha's body, like the isi (the meditation practitioner outside buddhism) can see the breaking-dish in Abhi. Āyatana-Vibhaṅga, which I show you above. Then before Vakkali die by his suicide, he understood anattā-characteristic, meditated anattā-anupassanā, enlightened arahatta-magga (the arahanta noble one), and died.
I am finding it a bit hard to follow your reasoning.
Do you have the reference that indicates Vakkali was blunt (mudindriyassa)?
As we know he was one of the 80 great disciples ( Mahāsāvakāti) according to the Vajjasuttavaṇṇanā (see the Aṅguttaranikāye
Dukanipāta-ṭīkā).
Asīti mahāsāvakāti aññāsikoṇḍañño, vappo, bhaddiyo, mahānāmo, assaji, nāḷako, yaso, vimalo, subāhu, puṇṇaji, gavampati, uruvelakassapo, nadīkassapo, gayākassapo, sāriputto, mahāmoggallāno, mahākassapo, mahākaccāno, mahākoṭṭhiko, mahākappino, mahācundo, anuruddho, kaṅkhārevato, ānando, nandako, bhagu, nandiyo, kimilo, bhaddiyo, rāhulo, sīvali, upāli, dabbo, upaseno, khadiravaniyarevato, puṇṇo mantāniputto, puṇṇo sunāparantako, soṇo kuṭikaṇṇo, soṇo koḷiviso, rādho, subhūti, aṅgulimālo, vakkali
as a great disciple he would have gained mastery of jhana I believe- even if in the processes immediately preceding his attainment.

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:44 am

theY All your quotes came from people who never have the experience of jhāna-attaining, most of them also are not tipitaka-pāli-memorizers. Some of them, nina&sucin&neab, came from the dark age of thai buddhism.

That's why they often let pāli canons conflict each others
I quoted one small translation of a pali text by Nina Van Gorkom. The rest I searched myself- not from "nina&sucin&neab".
theY: While Thai forest tradition--bh. Mun, & Burma forest tradition-- Pa-Auk, teach the same method, .
From what I read of Mahabua's book on A. Mun , and his own writings I would say his method and views are rather different from Pa-Auk.
TheYAll your quotes came from people who never have the experience of jhāna-attaining, most of them also are not tipitaka-pāli-memorizers. .....

That's why they often let pāli canons conflict each others
I still have not seen the conflict..

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:51 am

Volovsky wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:26 pm
Few thoughts about "jhāna as prerequisite for vipassana" issue if we look form the Pa-Auk system point of view (the way I understand it).

Before practicing vipassana one has first to acquire two preliminary knowledges: #1) Knowing nāma-rūpa and #2) Apprehending dependent origination.

For the 2nd knowledge one should be able to see how conditions from the previous life have created the present nāma-rūpa, and how conditions from this life will created the future life nāma-rūpa. And this goes for many past and future lifes.

According to Pa-Auk,
"The splendour, radiance, light, brilliance and brightness of wisdom that you have developed enables you to go back along the line of successive mentality-materiality from the present to the moment of your rebirth in this life, to the moment of your death in your past life, and further back in the same way to as many lives as you can discern, and then also look into the future, to the time of your own Parinibbāna.82
p.24 of Knowing and Seeing, 4th edition
and
That is why, at the time of practising deep and profound meditation continuously over a period, you will see your own Parinibbāna either in this life or in the future[/i
]

this may be possible for the rare types who could have mastery of jhana - but mastery of jhana is no easy matter at all. See my quote from the Visuddhimagga.

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:35 am

TheY: Sukkhavipassaka's lokuttara-appanā-jhāna-attaining is harder than lokiya-jhāna-attaining because lokuttara-appanā-jhāna-attaining can cessation unwholesome-anusaya arising, and can access to insight nibbāna-object.
Of course attaining nibbana - even by sukka-vipassaka- is much more profound and wonderful than attaining lokiya-jhana (mundane jhana). Even at the time of no Buddhasasana there can be wise yogis who can attain this.

It may be that at times jhanalabhi is used in a different way depending on context. So let's use the term "vipassanā·pādaka·jjhāna" which is used (If I got the pali and context correct), as being the ones who use jhana as the basis for insight.



So, what I am suggesting is that the vipassanā·pādaka·jjhāna person- the one who uses jhana as the basis for vipassana is a very amazing and wonderful Buddha disciple indeed. They are able - as I understand it- to enter and leave jhana at will . Thus immediately after leaving jhana they can insight the fallen away jhana factors and develop insight.
If I understand Pa-Auk correctly though he suggests that after emerging from 4th jhana that the yogi then changes over to the 4 elements meditation: which seems to be a different way:
p.43 T h e O n l y W a y f o r t h e R e a l i z a t i o n o f N i b b ā n a
But since we are here discussing the meditator who has developed ān∙āpāna jhāna for
the sake of using it as insight-basis jhāna(vipassanā∙pādaka∙jjhāna), you should in every sitting re-establish your fourth
ān∙āpāna jhāna. Then, when your mind is bright, brilliant, and radiant, you should emerge from the fourth jhāna,
and develop the four-elements meditation. You should do this at every sitting. With the power and light of your
ān∙āpāna jhāna, you will be able to complete four-elements meditation quite quickly.
In any event, the sukka-vipassaka's path is more mundane. They insight the everyday realities, even the nivarana - the hindrances(see Commentary to the satipatthana sutta
"Here the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances is the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the bhikkhu who lays hold of the hindrances should be understood."

And of course there are yogis who can attain jhana but don't use the jhana as a basis for insight. Still a great thing.

Now surely if one is a master of jhana that is a great accomplishment- and like all kusala - an assist on the path to nibbana.
But I still maintain that attaining mundane jhana is very difficult- let alone mastering it.
That is why I find the lower -but of course still so hard- way of the sukka-vipassaka to be the more to my taste.

Remember the decline of Dhamma see viewtopic.php?t=22447
In his commentary, Buddhaghosa eventually increases the life of the sāsana to 5,000 years. During the first 1,000 years, he says, there will be arahants with the four analytical knowledges. The next 1,000 years there will be "bare insight" arahants. The next 1,000 years there will be anāgāmin (non-returners). The next 1,000 years there will be sakadāgāmin (once returners) and the next 1,000 years there will be sotāpanna (stream enterers). Adding these figures together, we find that the paṭivedha (realization or penetration of the Dhamma) will last for 5,000 years.

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by Volovsky » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:51 pm

robertk wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:51 am
this may be possible for the rare types who could have mastery of jhana - but mastery of jhana is no easy matter at all. See my quote from the Visuddhimagga.
Yes, it would require jhāna or upacāra samadhi. But the more one had practiced this in previous lifes the lower concentration would probably be needed.
If I understand Pa-Auk correctly though he suggests that after emerging from 4th jhana that the yogi then changes over to the 4 elements meditation: which seems to be a different way
I think, the text describes here the case when one is still practicing 4 elements meditation in order to see rūpa. Jhāna will make make his progress faster. But once one had switched to vipassana he would analyze jhāna factors as you mentioned.
The next 1,000 years there will be "bare insight" arahants. The next 1,000 years there will be anāgāmin (non-returners). The next 1,000 years there will be sakadāgāmin (once returners) and the next 1,000 years there will be sotāpanna (stream enterers). 
I'm not convinced by the commentaries on this point. First, it is not clear why jhāna attainment should disappear before magga-phala if we all know that even in the time between the Buddhas it is still possible to attain jhānas. Are buddhists less gifted in this respect than Hindus? Second, for at least anāgāmin it must be quite easy to attain jhāna since three of the five nivaranas cannot even arise in his mind.

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:28 pm

Volovsky wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:51 pm

The next 1,000 years there will be "bare insight" arahants. The next 1,000 years there will be anāgāmin (non-returners). The next 1,000 years there will be sakadāgāmin (once returners) and the next 1,000 years there will be sotāpanna (stream enterers). 
I'm not convinced by the commentaries on this point. First, it is not clear why jhāna attainment should disappear before magga-phala if we all know that even in the time between the Buddhas it is still possible to attain jhānas. Are buddhists less gifted in this respect than Hindus? Second, for at least anāgāmin it must be quite easy to attain jhāna since three of the five nivaranas cannot even arise in his mind.
It is not that there cant be mundane jhanas. it is just that there can't be the extraordinarily gifted who can master jhanas and use them as the basis for arahatship.
Yes , it must be that an anagami, even if he were a bare insight worker , if he turned his mind to jhana it wouldnt be too much of a problem..but that is not the same as amazing types at the time near the buddha.

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