I wrote this answer for 3 days, don't let it go with the wind, please.
I don't know how to write this answer looking not superago. I just what to help the westerner realize the main cause of problem. I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't want to show off. I don't want to win. I just want to help them deconflict tipitaka because I can deconflict tipitaka.
I know that nobody want to feel like sufferer, who need help. But I don't know how to talk with them like they are winners. My english skill still lacking and my making friend skill still poor. Please, try to understand these are my limitation.
robertk wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:33 am
theY wrote: ↑
Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:01 pm
It is from tipitaka & atthakathā. Who understood netti, can understand pa-auk.
Atthakathā never wrote about khaṇika-citta-visuddhi which base vipassanā. There are only upacāra & uppanā-citta-visuddhi in Atthakathā. However by netti's method, khaṇika-citta-visuddhi can base vipassanā for diṭṭhi-carita-person. So,ṭīkā wrote about khaṇika-citta-visuddhi as vipassanā base. Why? because diṭṭhi-carita-person can puase kilesa like upacāra-citta-visuddhi. So, it is not important for them to meditate jhanas, first.
However, pa-auk allowed the practitioner to read or listen dhamma, too. So if the practitioner is diṭṭhi-carita, he must enlightened after read or listen. But if they are not, they may be a taṇhā-carita-person, who must to meditate jhāna to pause kilesa before meditate vipasanā.
This concept appears in variance place of netti, tipiṭaka, atthakathā. So, "people should do jhāna" is not pa-auk's opinion, but it is teaching from tipitaka & atthakathā.
The Netti-pakarana (587):
Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati. Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties.
Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya .
Only the very wise ones with great accumulations could master jhana and use it as the base for insight: these tyoes no longer exist. Just consider the rather hilarious ideas we read about of people who think they have attained jhana( let alone mastery) .
You are showing "how weak of western study system (reading) is", and "the difference between the ancient buddhist study system (reciting&memorizing) vs western study system (reading)." If you recited & memorized tipitaka and netti, you will not let them conflict each others, especially you will not let netti conflict with netti-self.
The western study system (reading) destroyed thailand ancient monk study system began from the colony war. And until now, it still block the westerner to understand the whole pali canons. I don't know how to let the buddhist people realize this problem. At least I am trying every way I can.
(Above text is just the comparison to show the problem that why the westerner often let pāli-canons conflicts themselves, but the memorizers ignore what the westerner try to say. so don't feel like I try to blame you.)
Who understood netti, can understand pa-auk.
What is understood? paññā,
what is paññā? yathāsabhāvapaṭivedha
What is paṭivedha? It means "Insertion through from the beginning to the end".
Then let's see how the western student doesn't understand netti from desanāhāravibhaṅga, the beginning of netti which quoted by me
, to tipukkhalanaya, the almost ending of netti which quoted by you.
The comprehension of 2 characteristics (impermanent&conflict) are the base of both samatha&vipassanā-meditation in Abhi. Āyatana-Vibhaṅga
. According to that link, the cause of problem in life is impermanent&conflict-characteristic. So, the ancient people, such as sarabhaṅga-isi (the meditation practitioner outside buddhism), can knew that and tried to meditate samatha to cessation them. Sadly, they missed the point, because actually they should meditate the comprehension of impermanent&conflict-characteristic together samatha, not only samatha. By this way, they can discover anatta-characteristic like the Buddha can do.
So, all beginner have to realize that 2 characteristics of life to open their mind for all meditations (samatha&vipassanā-bhāvanā), although the buddha taught the sequence of the meditation starting at samatha (concentration) in Sutta. Ma. Mū. Rathavinītasuttaṃ
, Sutta. Saṃ. Kha.
According to Sutta. Ma. Mū. Rathavinītasuttaṃ
, netti, desanā
hāravibhaṅga (they way to teach) was authored like what I have written in your quote. According to Abhi. Āyatana-Vibhaṅga
, what you quote from netti was written like that.
The blunt indriya have to study 2 characteristics first, to open their mind for samatha&vipassanā meditation. So, buddha have to teach these 2 vipassanā for the blunt indriya first, such as in Sutta. Saṃ. Kha. Vakkalisutta
. Vakkali had understood 2 characteristics after buddha taught him about buddha's body, like the isi (the meditation practitioner outside buddhism) can see the breaking-dish in Abhi. Āyatana-Vibhaṅga
, which I show you above. Then before Vakkali die by his suicide, he understood anattā-characteristic, meditated anattā-anupassanā, enlightened arahatta-magga (the arahanta noble one), and died.
But the keen indriya need only the next step, anattā-anupassanā, because they is professional of the comprehension of the other 2 characteristics before. So they just have to meditate citta-visuddhi according to rathavinīasutta, to be the base to comprehend the other 2 characteristics to access in sign anattā. They have not to do anything to trust of meditation first like the brunt.
Next, if what I wrote above is right, what you wrote must be wrong, conflicting with the atthakathā of netti:
Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight alone to one who is guidable (neyya)
But in atthakathā
Tattha katamo tipukkhalanayo? Paṭipadāvibhāgena catūsu puggalesu yo sukhāya paṭipadāya khippābhiññāya niyyāti, ayaṃ ugghaṭitaññū. Yo sukhāya vā paṭipadāya, dandhābhiññāya, dukkhāya vā paṭipadāya khippābhiññāya niyyāti, ayaṃ vipañcitaññū. Yo dukkhāya paṭipadāya dandhābhiññāya niyyāti, ayaṃ neyyo. Iti cattāro hutvā tayo honti. Tattha ugghaṭitaññussa samathapubbaṅgamā vipassanā sappāyā . Neyyassa vipassanāpubbaṅgamo samatho, vipañcitaññussa samathavipassanā yuganaddhā. Ugghaṭitaññussa mudukā desanā, neyyassa tikkhā desanā, vipañcitaññussa tikkhamudukā desanā.
It looks censorious, but don't forget this is just an evidence
for what I wrote "if what I wrote above is right, what you wrote must be wrong". Because pāli canons are the pure logic.
Most of their content must can prove by their literature, context, history, causes, effects, etc. When something look wired, the others will help us to discover it.
So, this is not trying to competition you. It is just describing and proving.
The other, in nayasamuṭṭhāna of natti, that you quoted, "upadisati" = the fist step to teach, it doesn't mean like "nīyyati" in desanāhāravibhaṅga of netti. nīyyati = the first step to meditation, or to teach the fist step of the meditation. The moha-carita (brunt indriya) need "upadisati" to trust in the meditation, then the trusting person need "nīyyati" to meditate the meditation.
So, in KN. U.A. (paramatthadī.)
Dhammaṃ "desetī"ti ādikalyāṇādiguṇavisesayuttaṃ Sīlādipaṭipadādhammaṃ samathavipassanādhammameva vā veneyyajjhāsayānurūpaṃ upadisatikatheti.
Finally, I know you are sticking with the concept "moha-mūla is a low wisdom", so you think buddha trying to put vipassanā to the brunt first to make them smarter. But actually, there are the sequences of wisdoms
, so the brunt has to start from the base first. Although they try to do vipassanā, anattā-characteristic of whole worlds can't clearly appear to them. Then they will stick at some step of meditation like in this link
. So, vipassanā, which buddha taught to the brunt, is something like I described to you above.
Some observers have wondered if arahats really talk to past Buddhas and so on.
see this thread
I knew that text. I have read that it long time ago. They may not enlightened, I don't really know their state. I am a ordinary lay who have ordained many years ago. I focus only on their study system, culture, tradition, effort, knowledge, book, etc. I compared them with Burmese monks and pāli canons tradition to learn how the ancient monk actually did in the past.
They maybe stuck at dasa-vipassanūpakkilesa.
Could I ask their names?
), who is the first age student of bh. jotika (founder of jotika abhidhamma college of thailand). The past director of jotika abhidhamma college. An abhidhamma teacher of P.A. Payutto
, bh. sombat nandiko
, bh. santi uttama puñño.
), the past lecturer of sujin's foundation. He broke his studentship with his teacher, sujin. Then pay his respect to bh. sombat nandiko. Now he are a monk. He don't trust in pa-auk. Because his pali skill is not too good. But he is a very nice practitioner for me, because he give the big effort to learn and teach dhamma. He just learn it in the western way, that is just one of his problem to let him can't understand pa-auk.
They are not the famous people, but their knowledge are the great (comparing to only thai monks).