Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

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theY
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Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by theY » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:55 am

that awareness is anatta. It has its own conditions. It does not arise by thinking of it or wanting to have it.
Thinking of awareness can be awareness as well, so thinking of awareness can be awareness's condition.

In Abhi. Paṭṭhāna, unwholesome awareness can cause wholesome awareness as well. So, for some beginner, desire maybe required. And mahāsaṭipaṭṭhānasutta's atthakathā wrote "the beginner shouldn't comprehension on wholesome awareness at first."

Ācān Sucin is the abhidhammist who often teach conflict with abhidhamma, because she began to study tipitaka in the weak age of thai buddhism, especially the lost age of abhidhamma.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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robertk
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by robertk » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:09 am

theY wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:55 am
that awareness is anatta. It has its own conditions. It does not arise by thinking of it or wanting to have it.
"

Ācān Sucin is the abhidhammist who often teach conflict with abhidhamma, because she began to study tipitaka in the weak age of thai buddhism, especially the lost age of abhidhamma.
And which current teachers have genuine knowledge of Abhidhamma in your opinion?

theY
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by theY » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:18 pm

robertk wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:09 am
theY wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:55 am
that awareness is anatta. It has its own conditions. It does not arise by thinking of it or wanting to have it.
"

Ācān Sucin is the abhidhammist who often teach conflict with abhidhamma, because she began to study tipitaka in the weak age of thai buddhism, especially the lost age of abhidhamma.
And which current teachers have genuine knowledge of Abhidhamma in your opinion?
The quality of teachers in tipitaka&atthakathā culture is in this link. I think there are many teacher like that in Burma, I found one school, Pa-Auk Monastery. I proved 4 teachers: u-ācinna, u-revata, u-kumāra, and u-bhodhiñāṇa, of that school by myself. The questions are about jhāna&vipassanā-meditation from tipiṭaka&atthakathā&ṭīkā, pāli. They could answer clearly by pāli-word. Especially, in the question about paññatti which most of people can't answer me, although tipitaka&atthakathā&ṭīkā emphasize paññatti very much for vipassanā.

Another, they have all quality of monks which buddha specify in tipitaka, such as 15 qualities in KN Mettasutta. Especially, they have a very open mind, which is very important base to be sotāpanna.

They will not much teach you like thai modern school. They will teach you step by step meditation like ancient thai forest monastery. Then after you attain the meditation target. They will let you memorize tipitaka in pāli. Because this is ancient theravāda tradition. We are doing like this through 26xx years.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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robertk
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by robertk » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:52 pm

theY wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:18 pm

. I think there are many teacher like that in Burma, I found one school, Pa-Auk Monastery. I proved 4 teachers: u-ācinna, u-revata, u-kumāra, and
I see. And yet the main book by Pa Auk is banned for distribution in Burma due to its rather mistaken ideas [in the estimation of the, I assume, knowledgeable religious authorities].
http://www.myanmarnet.net/nibbana/pandita5.htm
Some very thick books of Pa Auk Sayadaw in English which were sent to Myanmar from Taiwan have been banned and prohibited from distribution by the Maha Nayaka Sayadaws of the Myanmar Religious Affairs Department in Kaba Aye, Yangon.

In response to an attack on the Mahasi method by one Pa Auk disciple, Sayadaw U Panditabhivamsa remarked, "One should not immerse poison into pure, clean water which is very useful. After being contaminated it will become useless. So don't put poison into pure, clean water"

Recently, Pa Auk Sayadaw went to Panditarama to pay respects to his teacher, Sayadaw U Panditabhivamsa. The Sayadaw greeted him with metta and karuna. He placidly advised his disciple thus, "One should drive minding one's own car in traffic and be in his own lane without disturbing others. When approaching a traffic light, to move only in green, to slow down and be ready to halt in amber and to stop in red. Transgressing these traffic rules will surely cause an accident."
that

theY
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by theY » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:15 pm

robertk wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:52 pm
...
There is a big detail on this case:
  1. Teaching for one's enlightenment.
  2. Teaching for keeping Buddhist teaching go on until 5000 years.
Buddha and his students make the structure of tipiṭaka, atthakathā, and study system for keeping Buddhist teaching go on until 5000 years. But the way of u-mahāsī and ancient thai forest monastery tradition is just for one's enlightenment.

U pa-auk try to do everything and every step follow to tipiṭaka and atthakathā, but u mahāsi choose his own way to teach people. Ancient thai forest monastery is the same, they never taught their student to memorize bhikkunī-pāṭimokkha, etc.

Nowadays, thailand which leading by present thai forest monk can't control thai monks, because even they can meditate themselves, but they can't keep tipiṭaka&atthakathā study system, and they can't teach their students to keep tipiṭaka&atthakathā as well.

They can't keep because their previous thai forest teachers ignored the ancient study system (there was a big change while the colony war by our dynasty), such as memorizing tipiṭaka, then taught them by shortcut way but pa-auk can keep because pa-auk try to do everything follow to tipiṭaka&atthakathā.

This is the reason that why pa-auk monks disagree with u mahāsī teaching.

But u paṇḍita told u pa-auk like that due to keeping the unity of Burma monks.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

theY
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by theY » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:01 pm

robertk wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:31 pm
You are saying that the “Maha Nayaka Sayadaws of the Myanmar Religious Affairs Department “ banned the Pa Auk book because it followed the Tipitaka.?
I said "But u paṇḍita told u pa-auk like that due to keeping the unity of Burma monks".

When the noble ones disagree with each other, it doesn't mean they hate each other. But it means their knowledge is not the same size. Such as ven. ānanda, sotāpanna, talked with Buddha, arahanta, in upaḍḍhasutta. So, the ban doesn't mean only "Pa Auk is not good", but it means "Maha Nayaka Sayadaws try to keep the unity of Burma monks".

These Maha Nayaka monks are supposedly well versed in Abhidhamma...
I don't know much about him, so I can't not judge anything about him. However for me, It doesn't means abhidhammist must be good or right in buddhism. My 2 previous teachers are the top 5 of thailand in tipitaka, especially abhidhamma knowledge. But their meditation knowledge still lower than Pa-Auk's teachers. They can't not answer my questions although I got them from tipiṭaka&atthakathā which I studied from them. But Pa-Auk can answer, although I never study anything from pa-auk. It's amazing!
Read the book: Pa Auk encourages people of these days to master jhanas: just one example of a problem.
It is from tipitaka & atthakathā. Who understood netti, can understand pa-auk. Atthakathā never wrote about khaṇika-citta-visuddhi which base vipassanā. There are only upacāra & uppanā-citta-visuddhi in Atthakathā. However by netti's method, khaṇika-citta-visuddhi can base vipassanā for diṭṭhi-carita-person. So,ṭīkā wrote about khaṇika-citta-visuddhi as vipassanā base. Why? because diṭṭhi-carita-person can puase kilesa like upacāra-citta-visuddhi. So, it is not important for them to meditate jhanas, first.

However, pa-auk allowed the practitioner to read or listen dhamma, too. So if the practitioner is diṭṭhi-carita, he must enlightened after read or listen. But if they are not, they may be a taṇhā-carita-person, who must to meditate jhāna to pause kilesa before meditate vipasanā.

This concept appears in variance place of netti, tipiṭaka, atthakathā. So, "people should do jhāna" is not pa-auk's opinion, but it is teaching from tipitaka & atthakathā.
What is this shortcut way you mention?
They didn't do follow to ancient study system step. They didn't study&graduate the ancient study system before they go around the country to teach people.

So, even though they are arahanta, they cut tipiṭaka off by ignore to memorize it.They cut the time to learn tipiṭaka after enlightened.

All of those are shortcut.
You refer to Thai monks who you think take/ took a shortcut and that they attained, ( but dont teach their students properly) .
I refer to every enlightened or rightly meditating monks, who didn't do follow to ancient study system step. Because buddha ordered all monks to do follow ancient study system step, before teaching people. Although, they are enlightened, they still have to do it. But they didn't.
Which monks are you referring to?
Āchan Mun Bhūridatto, Āchan Mahā Bau Ñānasampanno, etc.

They lived in the colony war age, so they have to teach their students by the western study system (reading) instead of the ancient study system(reciting&memorizing).
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

theY
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by theY » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:46 am

Another, the ancient theravada study system step's example:
https://unmixedtheravada.blogspot.com/2 ... a-and.html
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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robertk
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Re: Sujin Boriharnwanaket: quotes

Post by robertk » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:33 am

theY wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:01 pm
Who understood netti, can understand pa-auk
. Atthakathā never wrote about khaṇika-citta-visuddhi which base vipassanā. There are only upacāra & uppanā-citta-visuddhi in Atthakathā. However by netti's method, khaṇika-citta-visuddhi can base vipassanā for diṭṭhi-carita-person. So,ṭīkā wrote about khaṇika-citta-visuddhi as vipassanā base. Why? because diṭṭhi-carita-person can puase kilesa like upacāra-citta-visuddhi. So, it is not important for them to meditate jhanas, first.

However, pa-auk allowed the practitioner to read or listen dhamma, too. So if the practitioner is diṭṭhi-carita, he must enlightened after read or listen. But if they are not, they may be a taṇhā-carita-person, who must to meditate jhāna to pause kilesa before meditate vipasanā.

This concept appears in variance place of netti, tipiṭaka, atthakathā. So, "people should do jhāna" is not pa-auk's opinion, but it is teaching from tipitaka & atthakathā.

.

The Netti-pakarana (587):

Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati. Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties.

Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya .

Only the very wise ones with great accumulations could master jhana and use it as the base for insight: these tyoes no longer exist. Just consider the rather hilarious ideas we read about of people who think they have attained jhana( let alone mastery) .

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robertk
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:26 am

theY: Although, they are enlightened, they still have to do it. But they didn't.
[i.e.]Āchan Mun Bhūridatto, Āchan Mahā Bau Ñānasampanno, etc
.

Some observers have wondered if arahats really talk to past Buddhas and so on.
see this thread
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19302&hilit=fellowship

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robertk
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:35 am

My 2 previous teachers are the top 5 of thailand in tipitaka, especially abhidhamma knowledge
.
Could I ask their names?

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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by theY » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:51 am

I wrote this answer for 3 days, don't let it go with the wind, please.

I don't know how to write this answer looking not superago. I just what to help the westerner realize the main cause of problem. I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't want to show off. I don't want to win. I just want to help them deconflict tipitaka because I can deconflict tipitaka. I know that nobody want to feel like sufferer, who need help. But I don't know how to talk with them like they are winners. My english skill still lacking and my making friend skill still poor. Please, try to understand these are my limitation.
robertk wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:33 am
theY wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:01 pm
It is from tipitaka & atthakathā. Who understood netti, can understand pa-auk. Atthakathā never wrote about khaṇika-citta-visuddhi which base vipassanā. There are only upacāra & uppanā-citta-visuddhi in Atthakathā. However by netti's method, khaṇika-citta-visuddhi can base vipassanā for diṭṭhi-carita-person. So,ṭīkā wrote about khaṇika-citta-visuddhi as vipassanā base. Why? because diṭṭhi-carita-person can puase kilesa like upacāra-citta-visuddhi. So, it is not important for them to meditate jhanas, first.

However, pa-auk allowed the practitioner to read or listen dhamma, too. So if the practitioner is diṭṭhi-carita, he must enlightened after read or listen. But if they are not, they may be a taṇhā-carita-person, who must to meditate jhāna to pause kilesa before meditate vipasanā.

This concept appears in variance place of netti, tipiṭaka, atthakathā. So, "people should do jhāna" is not pa-auk's opinion, but it is teaching from tipitaka & atthakathā.
The Netti-pakarana (587):

Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati. Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties.

Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya .

Only the very wise ones with great accumulations could master jhana and use it as the base for insight: these tyoes no longer exist. Just consider the rather hilarious ideas we read about of people who think they have attained jhana( let alone mastery) .
You are showing "how weak of western study system (reading) is", and "the difference between the ancient buddhist study system (reciting&memorizing) vs western study system (reading)." If you recited & memorized tipitaka and netti, you will not let them conflict each others, especially you will not let netti conflict with netti-self.

The western study system (reading) destroyed thailand ancient monk study system began from the colony war. And until now, it still block the westerner to understand the whole pali canons. I don't know how to let the buddhist people realize this problem. At least I am trying every way I can.

(Above text is just the comparison to show the problem that why the westerner often let pāli-canons conflicts themselves, but the memorizers ignore what the westerner try to say. so don't feel like I try to blame you.)

---------------------------

The explanation
Who understood netti, can understand pa-auk.
What is understood? paññā,
what is paññā? yathāsabhāvapaṭivedhalakkhaṇā paññā.
What is paṭivedha? It means "Insertion through from the beginning to the end".

Then let's see how the western student doesn't understand netti from desanāhāravibhaṅga, the beginning of netti which quoted by me, to tipukkhalanaya, the almost ending of netti which quoted by you.

The comprehension of 2 characteristics (impermanent&conflict) are the base of both samatha&vipassanā-meditation in Abhi. Āyatana-Vibhaṅga. According to that link, the cause of problem in life is impermanent&conflict-characteristic. So, the ancient people, such as sarabhaṅga-isi (the meditation practitioner outside buddhism), can knew that and tried to meditate samatha to cessation them. Sadly, they missed the point, because actually they should meditate the comprehension of impermanent&conflict-characteristic together samatha, not only samatha. By this way, they can discover anatta-characteristic like the Buddha can do.

So, all beginner have to realize that 2 characteristics of life to open their mind for all meditations (samatha&vipassanā-bhāvanā), although the buddha taught the sequence of the meditation starting at samatha (concentration) in Sutta. Ma. Mū. Rathavinītasuttaṃ, Sutta. Saṃ. Kha.
Samādhisuttaṃ, etc.

According to Sutta. Ma. Mū. Rathavinītasuttaṃ, netti, desanāhāravibhaṅga (they way to teach) was authored like what I have written in your quote. According to Abhi. Āyatana-Vibhaṅga, what you quote from netti was written like that.

The blunt indriya have to study 2 characteristics first, to open their mind for samatha&vipassanā meditation. So, buddha have to teach these 2 vipassanā for the blunt indriya first, such as in Sutta. Saṃ. Kha. Vakkalisutta. Vakkali had understood 2 characteristics after buddha taught him about buddha's body, like the isi (the meditation practitioner outside buddhism) can see the breaking-dish in Abhi. Āyatana-Vibhaṅga, which I show you above. Then before Vakkali die by his suicide, he understood anattā-characteristic, meditated anattā-anupassanā, enlightened arahatta-magga (the arahanta noble one), and died.

But the keen indriya need only the next step, anattā-anupassanā, because they is professional of the comprehension of the other 2 characteristics before. So they just have to meditate citta-visuddhi according to rathavinīasutta, to be the base to comprehend the other 2 characteristics to access in sign anattā. They have not to do anything to trust of meditation first like the brunt.

-----------------

Next, if what I wrote above is right, what you wrote must be wrong, conflicting with the atthakathā of netti:
Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight alone to one who is guidable (neyya)
But in atthakathā wrote:
Tattha katamo tipukkhalanayo? Paṭipadāvibhāgena catūsu puggalesu yo sukhāya paṭipadāya khippābhiññāya niyyāti, ayaṃ ugghaṭitaññū. Yo sukhāya vā paṭipadāya, dandhābhiññāya, dukkhāya vā paṭipadāya khippābhiññāya niyyāti, ayaṃ vipañcitaññū. Yo dukkhāya paṭipadāya dandhābhiññāya niyyāti, ayaṃ neyyo. Iti cattāro hutvā tayo honti. Tattha ugghaṭitaññussa samathapubbaṅgamā vipassanā sappāyā . Neyyassa vipassanāpubbaṅgamo samatho, vipañcitaññussa samathavipassanā yuganaddhā. Ugghaṭitaññussa mudukā desanā, neyyassa tikkhā desanā, vipañcitaññussa tikkhamudukā desanā.
It looks censorious, but don't forget this is just an evidence for what I wrote "if what I wrote above is right, what you wrote must be wrong". Because pāli canons are the pure logic. Most of their content must can prove by their literature, context, history, causes, effects, etc. When something look wired, the others will help us to discover it.

So, this is not trying to competition you. It is just describing and proving.


----------------------
The other, in nayasamuṭṭhāna of natti, that you quoted, "upadisati" = the fist step to teach, it doesn't mean like "nīyyati" in desanāhāravibhaṅga of netti. nīyyati = the first step to meditation, or to teach the fist step of the meditation. The moha-carita (brunt indriya) need "upadisati" to trust in the meditation, then the trusting person need "nīyyati" to meditate the meditation.

So, in KN. U.A. (paramatthadī.):
Dhammaṃ "desetī"ti ādikalyāṇādiguṇavisesayuttaṃ Sīlādipaṭipadādhammaṃ samathavipassanādhammameva vā veneyyajjhāsayānurūpaṃ upadisatikatheti.
-----------------------

Finally, I know you are sticking with the concept "moha-mūla is a low wisdom", so you think buddha trying to put vipassanā to the brunt first to make them smarter. But actually, there are the sequences of wisdoms, so the brunt has to start from the base first. Although they try to do vipassanā, anattā-characteristic of whole worlds can't clearly appear to them. Then they will stick at some step of meditation like in this link. So, vipassanā, which buddha taught to the brunt, is something like I described to you above.

-----------------------
Some observers have wondered if arahats really talk to past Buddhas and so on.
see this thread
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19302&hilit=fellowship
I knew that text. I have read that it long time ago. They may not enlightened, I don't really know their state. I am a ordinary lay who have ordained many years ago. I focus only on their study system, culture, tradition, effort, knowledge, book, etc. I compared them with Burmese monks and pāli canons tradition to learn how the ancient monk actually did in the past.

They maybe stuck at dasa-vipassanūpakkilesa.

--------------------
Could I ask their names?
Sumon nandiko (สุมนต์ นันทิโก), who is the first age student of bh. jotika (founder of jotika abhidhamma college of thailand). The past director of jotika abhidhamma college. An abhidhamma teacher of P.A. Payutto, bh. sombat nandiko, bh. santi uttama puñño.

Santi uttamapuñño (สันติ อุตฺตมปุญฺโญ), the past lecturer of sujin's foundation. He broke his studentship with his teacher, sujin. Then pay his respect to bh. sombat nandiko. Now he are a monk. He don't trust in pa-auk. Because his pali skill is not too good. But he is a very nice practitioner for me, because he give the big effort to learn and teach dhamma. He just learn it in the western way, that is just one of his problem to let him can't understand pa-auk.

They are not the famous people, but their knowledge are the great (comparing to only thai monks).
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

theY
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by theY » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:43 am

I modified above reply to put all answers for all of your questions in the same post above.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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robertk
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:00 am

theY wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:51 am
I wrote this answer for 3 days, don't let it go with the wind, please.
Thanks for spending so much time on your reply
theY wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:51 am
I don't know how to write this answer looking not superago. I just what to help the westerner realize the main cause of problem. I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't want to show off. I don't want to win. I just want to help them deconflict tipitaka because I can deconflict tipitaka. I know that nobody want to feel like sufferer, who need help. But I don't know how to talk with them like they are winners. My english skill still lacking and my making friend skill still poor. Please, try to understand these are my limitation.
understood.
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theY wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:51 am
This concept appears in variance place of netti, tipiṭaka, atthakathā. So, "people should do jhāna" is not pa-auk's opinion, but it is teaching from tipitaka & atthakathā.
Th

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Could I ask their names?
theY wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:51 am
Sumon t nandiko[/url], bh. santi uttama puñño.

Santi uttamapuñño (สันติ อุตฺตมปุญฺโญ), the past lecturer of sujin's foundation. He broke his studentship with his teacher, sujin. Then pay his respect to bh. sombat nandiko. Now he are a monk. He don't trust in pa-auk. Because his pali skill is not too good. But he is a very nice practitioner for me, because he give the big effort to learn and teach dhamma. He just learn it in the western way, that is just one of his problem to let him can't understand pa-auk.

They are not the famous people, but their knowledge are the great (comparing to only thai monks).


I met Santi when he was a monk , and then later, about 20 years ago after he disrobed. He seemed to have a detailed pali knowledge but we disagreed on some points.
Is he back in robes?

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robertk
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:29 am

theY wrote: ↑ This concept appears in variance place of netti, tipiṭaka, atthakathā. So, "people should do jhāna" is not pa-auk's opinion, but it is teaching from tipitaka & atthakathā
I dont follow this at all.
The jhanalabhi is the most amazing, skilled wonder of the Buddha's disciples. It is also the type that must be the rarest.

What do you think is the sukkavipassaka ? he is the most base of the disciples, yet he can still attain. Without jhana.

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robertk
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Re: Pa-Auk, Sujin Boriharnwanaket, Mahasi, etc

Post by robertk » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:51 am

As I see the texts it is quite difficult even to attain a few moments of jhana-let alone using jhana as a basis. Would you agree.
Now, the kasiṇa preliminary work is difficult for a beginner and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To extend the sign when it has arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To tame one’s mind in the fourteen ways after reaching absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.
(Visuddhimagga ch. XII)
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