Does ignorance originates from defilement ?

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santa100
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Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?

Post by santa100 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:29 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:17 am
I'm still not seeing a basis for your assertion that DO is a circle - could you explain this with reference to DO suttas? I think there is a basis for saying that some nidanas are cyclical internally, eg bhava represents a cycle of birth and death, but I don't see how DO as a whole is a circle.
It's very simple: you aren't seeing it because you don't accept DO as spanning multiple life times. Ven Bodhi's intro. to NidanaSamyutta in his "Connected Discourses" says:
To hope to find in the Nidānasaṃyutta a clear explanation of the sequence of conditions, as we might expect from a modern textbook on the subject, is to court disappointment. The formula preserved in the texts is stripped to the bone, perhaps serving as a mnemonic device, and it seems likely that the original expositions on the topic were fleshed out with elaborations that were not recorded in the suttas but were transmitted orally within the lineage of teachers. Because the texts lack a clearcut explanation of the formula, modern interpreters of early Buddhism have sometimes devised capricious theories about its original meaning, theories which assume that the Buddhist tradition itself has muddled up the interpretation of this most basic Buddhist doctrine. To avoid the arbitrariness and wilfulness of personal opinion, it seems more prudent to rely on the method of explanation found in the Buddhist exegetical tradition, which despite minor differences in details is largely the same across the spectrum of early Buddhist schools. Here I will give only a concise summary of the interpretation offered by the Pāli tradition.

... From this we can see that the traditional interpretation regards the twelve factors as spread out over a span of three lives, with ignorance and volitional formations pertaining to the past, birth and aging-and-death to the future, and the intermediate factors to the present. The segment from consciousness through feeling is the resultant phase of the present, the phase resulting from past ignorance and kamma; the segment from craving through active existence is the kammically creative phase of the present, leading to renewed existence in the future. Existence is distinguished into two phases: one, called kamma-existence (kammabhava), belongs to the causal phase of the present; the other, called rebirth-existence (upapattibhava), belongs to the resultant phase of the future. The twelve factors are also distributed into three “rounds”: the round of defilements (kilesavaṭṭa) includes ignorance, craving, and clinging; the round of action (kammavaṭṭa) includes volitional formations and kamma-existence; all the other factors belong to the round of results (vipakavaṭṭa). Defilements give rise to defiled actions, actions bring forth results, and results serve as the soil for more defilements. In this way the round of rebirths revolves without discernible beginning.

Dinsdale
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Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:19 am

santa100 wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:29 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:17 am
I'm still not seeing a basis for your assertion that DO is a circle - could you explain this with reference to DO suttas? I think there is a basis for saying that some nidanas are cyclical internally, eg bhava represents a cycle of birth and death, but I don't see how DO as a whole is a circle.
It's very simple: you aren't seeing it because you don't accept DO as spanning multiple life times. Ven Bodhi's intro. to NidanaSamyutta in his "Connected Discourses" says:
... From this we can see that the traditional interpretation regards the twelve factors as spread out over a span of three lives, with ignorance and volitional formations pertaining to the past, birth and aging-and-death to the future, and the intermediate factors to the present. The segment from consciousness through feeling is the resultant phase of the present, the phase resulting from past ignorance and kamma; the segment from craving through active existence is the kammically creative phase of the present, leading to renewed existence in the future. Existence is distinguished into two phases: one, called kamma-existence (kammabhava), belongs to the causal phase of the present; the other, called rebirth-existence (upapattibhava), belongs to the resultant phase of the future. The twelve factors are also distributed into three “rounds”: the round of defilements (kilesavaṭṭa) includes ignorance, craving, and clinging; the round of action (kammavaṭṭa) includes volitional formations and kamma-existence; all the other factors belong to the round of results (vipakavaṭṭa). Defilements give rise to defiled actions, actions bring forth results, and results serve as the soil for more defilements. In this way the round of rebirths revolves without discernible beginning.
I don't see how the three lifetimes model supports the idea of DO as a circle, as portrayed in the Tibetan wheel of life for example. I don't see how it supports the idea that ageing and death leads to ignorance, or that craving leads to ignorance. The DO suttas explain that while ignorance persists, then craving and suffering persist.

Actually I think the interpretation of DO spanning multiple lifetimes is valid, but IMO the logical candidate for cyclical existence is the bhava nidana, since birth(s) arise in dependence upon it. I see the three lives model as somewhat contrived, though perhaps less contrived than some of the alternatives.
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santa100
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Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?

Post by santa100 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:28 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:19 am
Actually I think the interpretation of DO spanning multiple lifetimes is valid, but IMO the logical candidate for cyclical existence is the bhava nidana, since birth(s) arise in dependence upon it. I see the three lives model as somewhat contrived, though perhaps less contrived than some of the alternatives.
I've provided the source that states the position of the Buddhist exegetical tradition. Whether it sounds "contrived" or not is up to the individual's interpretation. Maybe you should provide the source for some of the "alternatives" that you mentioned?

justindesilva
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Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?

Post by justindesilva » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:12 pm

santa100 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:28 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:19 am
Actually I think the interpretation of DO spanning multiple lifetimes is valid, but IMO the logical candidate for cyclical existence is the bhava nidana, since birth(s) arise in dependence upon it. I see the three lives model as somewhat contrived, though perhaps less contrived than some of the alternatives.
I've provided the source that states the position of the Buddhist exegetical tradition. Whether it sounds "contrived" or not is up to the individual's interpretation. Maybe you should provide the source for some of the "alternatives" that you mentioned?
From my interest in DO , the nidanas goes in acycle which is repetituve. The Nidanas though written from ignorance , can start from anywhere like bhava and end in bhava for eg:
Paticca samupada nirodha ( unconditioning ) too can start from any other nidhana. DO is the process of existence through samsara.

James Tan
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Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?

Post by James Tan » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:30 am

I suppose it is very difficult to determine whether DO is of exactly how many life time unless we can find out the exact meaning of namarupa .

But to take DO as one life time rather restricted to explain . Imo ignorance doesn't originates from defilements , it is defilement itself .

What can be said is ignorance has come about because of not knowing how the suffering arises and its causes . When we are born into this world , there is no Vijjā , that's mean not understanding which is Avijja .
:reading:

Dinsdale
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Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:29 am

santa100 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:28 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:19 am
Actually I think the interpretation of DO spanning multiple lifetimes is valid, but IMO the logical candidate for cyclical existence is the bhava nidana, since birth(s) arise in dependence upon it. I see the three lives model as somewhat contrived, though perhaps less contrived than some of the alternatives.
I've provided the source that states the position of the Buddhist exegetical tradition. Whether it sounds "contrived" or not is up to the individual's interpretation. Maybe you should provide the source for some of the "alternatives" that you mentioned?
As I'm sure you know there are many interpretations of DO, some traditional and some contemporary. Personally I don't find any of them satisfactory.

Could you could explain how ignorance arises in dependence upon aging and death, which would be necessary for your "circular" interpretation of DO?

Could you also explain your objection to the bhava nidana representing the cycle of birth and death, given that birth(s) arise in dependence upon it?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

santa100
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Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?

Post by santa100 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:56 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:29 am
As I'm sure you know there are many interpretations of DO, some traditional and some contemporary. Personally I don't find any of them satisfactory.

Could you could explain how ignorance arises in dependence upon aging and death, which would be necessary for your "circular" interpretation of DO?

Could you also explain your objection to the bhava nidana representing the cycle of birth and death, given that birth(s) arise in dependence upon it?
I'd be happy to but since you mentioned various different "alternatives", then at least you should provide some credible sources at least on the same level as Ven. Bodhi's as I've already provided?

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Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:48 am

santa100 wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:56 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:29 am
As I'm sure you know there are many interpretations of DO, some traditional and some contemporary. Personally I don't find any of them satisfactory.

Could you could explain how ignorance arises in dependence upon aging and death, which would be necessary for your "circular" interpretation of DO?

Could you also explain your objection to the bhava nidana representing the cycle of birth and death, given that birth(s) arise in dependence upon it?
I'd be happy to but since you mentioned various different "alternatives", then at least you should provide some credible sources at least on the same level as Ven. Bodhi's as I've already provided?
:shrug:
I think you're just avoiding my questions.
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DooDoot
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Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:17 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:19 am
Actually I think the interpretation of DO spanning multiple lifetimes is valid, but IMO the logical candidate for cyclical existence is the bhava nidana, since birth(s) arise in dependence upon it.
The above remains not compelling because from birth comes death but in the above two link birth-death cycle there is none of the other links. It sounds like the above is describing a still-born (dead) baby that has no contact and no feeling.
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:29 am
Could you could explain how ignorance arises in dependence upon aging and death, which would be necessary for your "circular" interpretation of DO?
When the lessons of life are not learned, ignorance continues. Its like when a marriage breaks up and folks look to get married again but make the same mistakes again. The world is full of people repeating the same painful mistakes. Ignorance arising or reinforcing after death is similar to this. The pain & trauma of death can make the mind even more ignorant or dark. This is why many people take drugs or use alcohol to avoid the trauma of death. For example, in MN 87, a man was so traumatized from death that he placed faith in gamblers rather than the Buddha. MN 87 shows how death can maintain or even increase ignorance.
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:29 am
Could you also explain your objection to the bhava nidana representing the cycle of birth and death, given that birth(s) arise in dependence upon it?
The Pali appears to say "bhava" is an "asava" ("defilement") rather than something meta-physical.
There are these three fermentations: the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. This is called fermentation.

MN 9

santa100
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Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?

Post by santa100 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:43 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:48 am
I think you're just avoiding my questions.
I've provided you source/reference while you have not provided anything despite being asked quite a few times.

auto
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Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?

Post by auto » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:47 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
..Then the thought occurred to me, 'Consciousness exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'
"Then the thought occurred to me, 'This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e.,
from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media...
Thus is the origination of this entire mass of stress. Origination, origination.' Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before.
origination origination


I wonder if links go back and forth so long till next link appears. Reminds me of Sutta where its said human birth is a coincidence:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... msara.html
"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."
"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.
"Therefore your duty is the contemplation: 'This is stress...This is the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress...This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"

auto
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Re: Does ignorance originates from defilement ?

Post by auto » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:43 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Ven. Sariputta said, "'Right view, right view' it is said...
Ven. Sariputta said, "When a disciple of the noble ones discerns what is unskillful, discerns the root of what is unskillful, discerns what is skillful, and discerns the root of what is skillful, it is to that extent that he is a person of right view, one whose view is made straight, who is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma, and who has arrived at this true Dhamma.
basically origination origination. In order to land on true dhamma, there is four things discerned and these are related and true Dhamma somehow can take it into one(sry not one it seem like its actually have to discern in a special way, described below).
Now what is unskillful? Taking life is unskillful, taking what is not given... sexual misconduct... lying... abusive speech... divisive tale-bearing... idle chatter is unskillful. Covetousness... ill will... wrong views are unskillful. These things are termed unskillful.

And what are the roots of what is unskillful? Greed is a root of what is unskillful, aversion is a root of what is unskillful, delusion is a root of what is unskillful. These are termed the roots of what is unskillful.

And what is skillful? Abstaining from taking life is skillful, abstaining from taking what is not given... from sexual misconduct... from lying... from abusive speech... from divisive tale-bearing... abstaining from idle chatter is skillful. Lack of covetousness... lack of ill will... right views are skillful. These things are termed skillful.

And what are the roots of what is skillful? Lack of greed is a root of what is skillful, lack of aversion is a root of what is skillful, lack of delusion is a root of what is skillful. These are termed the roots of what is skillful.
That's how discernment released is done
"When a disciple of the noble ones discerns what is unskillful in this way, discerns the root of what is unskillful in this way, discerns what is skillful in this way, and discerns the root of what is skillful in this way, when — having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession 'I am'; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing — he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here-&-now, it is to this extent that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view, one whose view is made straight, who is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma, and who has arrived at this true Dhamma."
But there is also rightly self-awakened one, Tathagata, who gives rise to unarisen.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Blessed One said, "The Tathagata — the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one — is the one who gives rise to the path (previously) unarisen, who engenders the path (previously) unengendered, who points out the path (previously) not pointed out. He knows the path, is expert in the path, is adept at the path. And his disciples now keep following the path and afterwards become endowed with the path.

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