The three shrines

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diamind
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The three shrines

Post by diamind » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:31 pm

On the planting on the bodhi tree savatthi. They wished to build a shrine. When Ānanda reported this to the Enlightened One, the latter declared that there were three types of shrines: the corporeal, the memorial, and representations.

Is there any further commentry about the third shrine? What is a representation of the buddha?

SarathW
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Re: The three shrines

Post by SarathW » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:00 pm

4. At that time the Venerable Ananda [4] was standing behind the Blessed One, fanning him, and the Blessed One addressed the Venerable Ananda thus: "What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis have frequent gatherings, and are their meetings well attended?"

"I have heard, Lord, that this is so."

"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

"What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis assemble and disperse peacefully and attend to their affairs in concord?"

"I have heard, Lord, that they do."

"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

"What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis neither enact new decrees nor abolish existing ones, but proceed in accordance with their ancient constitutions?"

"I have heard, Lord, that they do."

"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

"What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis show respect, honor, esteem, and veneration towards their elders and think it worthwhile to listen to them?"

"I have heard, Lord, that they do."

"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

"What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis refrain from abducting women and maidens of good families and from detaining them?"

"I have heard, Lord, that they refrain from doing so."

"So long, Ananda, as this is the case, the growth of the Vajjis is to be expected, not their decline.

"What have you heard, Ananda: do the Vajjis show respect, honor, esteem, and veneration towards their shrines, both those within the city and those outside it, and do not deprive them of the due offerings as given and made to them formerly?"

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SarathW
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Re: The three shrines

Post by SarathW » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:05 pm

"There are four persons, Ananda, who are worthy of a stupa. Who are those four? A Tathagata, an Arahant, a Fully Enlightened One is worthy of a stupa; so also is a Paccekabuddha,[49] and a disciple of a Tathagata, and a universal monarch.

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santa100
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Re: The three shrines

Post by santa100 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:25 am

From "Shrines and Relics in Buddhism":
The Commentary to the Treasure-store Discourse or Nidhikhanda Sutta [2] of the Khuddakapatha (KhpA 222) mentions the same three kinds of shrines as follows:
1. Shrine by use (paribhogika cetiya) namely, the Bodhi tree;
2. Relic shrine (dhatu cetiya), i.e., stupa with a relic chamber. (dhatu gabbha thupa).
3. Shrine of memorial or dedication (uddesika cetiya), namely, the Buddha image (patima).

SarathW
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Re: The three shrines

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:45 am

Shrine of memorial or dedication (uddesika cetiya), namely, the Buddha image (patima).

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I do not think this can be supported by sutta.
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Dhammanando
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Re: The three shrines

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:19 am

diamind wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:31 pm
Is there any further commentry about the third shrine? What is a representation of the buddha?
I would guess that you're referring to the Kāliṅgabodhi Jātaka.

The translation says:
This monastery, Sir, is left unprovided while the Tathāgata goes on pilgrimage, and there is no place for the people to do reverence by offering fragrant wreaths and garlands. Will you be so kind, Sir, as to tell the Tathāgata of this matter, and learn from him whether or no it is possible to find a place for this purpose."

The other, nothing loth, did so, asking, "How many shrines are there?"

"Three, Ānanda."

"Which are they?"

"Shrines for a relic of the body (sārīrika cetiya), a relic of use or wear (pāribhogika cetiya), a relic of memorial" (uddissaka cetiya).

"Can a shrine be made, Sir, during your life?"

"No, Ānanda, not a body-shrine; that kind is made when a Buddha enters Nirvāna. A shrine of memorial is improper because the connection depends on the imagination only. But the great bo-tree used by the Buddhas is fit for a shrine, be they alive or be they dead."
But I don't think the part in bold is correct. I would render it as the Thai translators do:
Uddissakaṃ avatthukaṃ mamāyanamattam'eva hoti.

"There is no basis for a dedicatory shrine, for such is intrinsically bound up with my own person."

SarathW
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Re: The three shrines

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:06 am

Ānanda, not a body-shrine; that kind is made when a Buddha enters Nirvāna.
Does this mean Buddha gave consent to build Buddha's statue (Buddha's image) after his Parinibbana?
Then why cant find them?
The present Buddha's statue came to light after many hundreds years.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

diamind
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Re: The three shrines

Post by diamind » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:44 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:19 am
diamind wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:31 pm
Is there any further commentry about the third shrine? What is a representation of the buddha?
I would guess that you're referring to the Kāliṅgabodhi Jātaka.

The translation says:
This monastery, Sir, is left unprovided while the Tathāgata goes on pilgrimage, and there is no place for the people to do reverence by offering fragrant wreaths and garlands. Will you be so kind, Sir, as to tell the Tathāgata of this matter, and learn from him whether or no it is possible to find a place for this purpose."

The other, nothing loth, did so, asking, "How many shrines are there?"

"Three, Ānanda."

"Which are they?"

"Shrines for a relic of the body (sārīrika cetiya), a relic of use or wear (pāribhogika cetiya), a relic of memorial" (uddissaka cetiya).

"Can a shrine be made, Sir, during your life?"

"No, Ānanda, not a body-shrine; that kind is made when a Buddha enters Nirvāna. A shrine of memorial is improper because the connection depends on the imagination only. But the great bo-tree used by the Buddhas is fit for a shrine, be they alive or be they dead."
But I don't think the part in bold is correct. I would render it as the Thai translators do:
Uddissakaṃ avatthukaṃ mamāyanamattam'eva hoti.

"There is no basis for a dedicatory shrine, for such is intrinsically bound up with my own person."
So first Buddha states there are three types of shrine for worship? But then rejects the third i.e uddissaka cetiya Am I following this clearly? So what exactly is the uddissaka cetiya? Do any exist? And since the Buddha stated this shrine is improper, why even mention it as a valid method only then to knock it down?

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Dhammanando
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Re: The three shrines

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:07 am

SarathW wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:06 am
Ānanda, not a body-shrine; that kind is made when a Buddha enters Nirvāna.
Does this mean Buddha gave consent to build Buddha's statue (Buddha's image) after his Parinibbana?
No. A sārīrika cetiya is a shrine containing the Buddha's bodily relics. This is not unqualifiedly disapproved in the Kāliṅgabodhi Jātaka, but it has to be built after his parinibbāna and not while he's still walking around.

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Dhammanando
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Re: The three shrines

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:52 am

diamind wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:44 am
So first Buddha states there are three types of shrine for worship? But then rejects the third i.e uddissaka cetiya Am I following this clearly? So what exactly is the uddissaka cetiya?
In the commentaries an uddissaka cetiya is understood to be a “likeness of the Buddha (buddha-pāṭimā)”:
Having thus shown treasure-store-ness in the ultimate sense by means of excellence of merit with the stanza beginning ‘But when a woman or a man...’, the Blessed One now said:

Cetiyamhi saṅghe vā, puggale atithīsu vā,
Mātari pitari vāpi, atho jeṭṭhamhi bhātari.


“In shrines or in the Saṅgha
Or in a person or in guests
Or in a mother, in a father,
Even in an elder brother.”
(Nidhikaṇḍa Sutta)

showing the ground wherein that treasure store is well laid by.

Herein, it should be built up (cayitabba), thus it is a ‘shrine’ (cetiya; what is meant is that it should be honoured. Or it is a shrine (cetiya) because it has been built up (cita). That is of three kinds: as a shrine by use (paribhoga-cetiya), a shrine by dedication (uddissaka-cetiya), and a relic shrine (dhātuka-cetiya).

Herein, the Tree of Enlightenment is a shrine by use, an image of the Enlightened One (buddhapaṭimā) is a shrine by dedication, and a monument with a relic-chamber containing a relic is a relic shrine.
(Minor Readings and Illustrator, pp. 249-50)
But how the Buddha's rejection of uddissaka-cetiyas in the Kāliṅgabodhi Jātaka should be understood is a disputed point. Some hold that it was an applicable proscription so long as the Buddha was still living, for at that time the Buddha's person alone, not an image of him, would be a fit object for a person's dedication. But with the Buddha's passing the proscription ceased to apply and so making images then became an acceptable practice. Others hold that his words were intended to apply for all time and so making images of him is always inappropriate. Obviously the latter opinion is very much a minority one in traditional Buddhist cultures.
diamind wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:44 am
And since the Buddha stated this shrine is improper, why even mention it as a valid method only then to knock it down?
Those holding to the first of the above opinions might argue that there was nothing amiss in mentioning disapproved cetiyas along with approved ones, for the disapproval of the former was only temporary.

Those holding to the second opinion might point to all the numerous suttas in which good and bad things are included by the Buddha in single lists.

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AgarikaJ
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Re: The three shrines

Post by AgarikaJ » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:45 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:52 am
But how the Buddha's rejection of uddissaka-cetiyas in the Kāliṅgabodhi Jātaka should be understood is a disputed point. Some hold that it was an applicable proscription so long as the Buddha was still living, for at that time the Buddha's person alone, not an image of him, would be a fit object for a person's dedication. But with the Buddha's passing the proscription ceased to apply and so making images then became an acceptable practice. Others hold that his words were intended to apply for all time and so making images of him is always inappropriate. Obviously the latter opinion is very much a minority one in traditional Buddhist cultures.
I think the emergence of Buddha images needs to be understood also in the sense that Buddhism never occured in a vacuum, but always in competition to other beliefs.

Very early, the Mahayana sects split off, who revered (physical) scriptures and started building shrines for them. Then there has always been very strong competition with Brahmanism and Hinduism, especiually in Southeast Asia, with their very rich and colorfully depicted pantheon.

In prehistoric Thailand for example, during the Dvaravati culture, there seems to have been a fast succession (if not outright mixing) of hinduist and buddhist-ruled city states (the latter a mix of Theravadan and Mahayan sects), a not dissimilar picture is known from early Khmer culture and into the present day the Thai royal dynasty carefully maintains a very strong undercurrent of essentially Brahmanist rituals (see the Royal Ploughing ceremony).

During Dvaravati times, it seems to have been tradition that Buddhists revered mainly impersonal symbols for worship, either footprints or the dhamma wheel. At a later stage only do we see reclining Buddhas (there is a very beautiful and already monumental example at Sung Noen in Khorat province from the 9th century, which I found personally very impressing) and there are very old, mostly quite small Buddha statues hewn in sandstone all over the Khorat plateau and Isaan related to hermit caves (I saw such for example in Phu Phrabat national park at the border between Udon Thani and Nong Bua Lamphu provinces).

All those places, to bring this into a historical context, were surrounded by immnse temple complexes like Phimai or Phanom Rung and moated cities like Muang Sena or of course Lopburi, facilitating trade overland in the direction of China. So there must have been strong pressure on (Theravadan) Buddhism to become represented by monumental, optically impressive structures to keep up.

But even nowadays, very many temples in Thailand offer a simple footprint where one can pay reverence and of course, there is not a single temple that would not have a Bo tree.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Volovsky
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Re: The three shrines

Post by Volovsky » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:19 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:52 am
Others hold that his words were intended to apply for all time and so making images of him is always inappropriate. Obviously the latter opinion is very much a minority one in traditional Buddhist cultures.
That reminds me on the fact that in early times Buddha was often represented by an empty throne (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniconism_in_Buddhism). I personally find such representation to be the most inspiring.

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