Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Post Reply
arunam
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:21 am

Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by arunam » Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:37 pm

I came to know of one recently for the second step “with mental formations as condition, consciousness arises”

[AN 3.76]
Thus kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture
A path is made by walking on it

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3249
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:49 am

Is this thread a duplicate? Was this thread previously discussed? :shrug: If not... :reading:

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3249
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:50 am

Consciousness:
Just as fire is classified simply by whatever requisite condition in dependence on which it burns — a fire that burns in dependence on wood is classified simply as a wood-fire, a fire that burns in dependence on wood-chips is classified simply as a wood-chip-fire; a fire that burns in dependence on grass is classified simply as a grass-fire; a fire that burns in dependence on cow-dung is classified simply as a cow-dung-fire; a fire that burns in dependence on chaff is classified simply as a chaff-fire; a fire that burns in dependence on rubbish is classified simply as a rubbish-fire — in the same way, consciousness is classified simply by the requisite condition in dependence on which it arises. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the eye & forms is classified simply as eye-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the ear & sounds is classified simply as ear-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the nose & aromas is classified simply as nose-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the tongue & flavors is classified simply as tongue-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the body & tactile sensations is classified simply as body-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the intellect & ideas is classified simply as intellect-consciousness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3249
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:53 am

Ignorance, asava & sankhara conditioning consciousness & nama-rupa:
"Imagine, Brahman, a bowl of water mixed with lac, turmeric, dark green or crimson dye. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was. In the same way, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sense-desires... then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, to the profit of others, to the profit of both. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has not studied.

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed with ill-will... then he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water, heated on a fire, boiling up and bubbling over. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was...

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sloth-and-torpor... then he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water covered over with slimy moss and water-plants. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was...

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by worry-and-flurry... then he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water ruffled by the wind, so that the water trembled, eddied and rippled. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was...

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by doubt-and-wavering... he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water, agitated, stirred up muddied, put in a dark place. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was. In the same way, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by doubt-and-wavering... then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, to the profit of others, to the profit of both. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has studied.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3249
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:05 am

"Abhinibbatti" or "production" is found in the definition of "birth" ("jati") as follows:
Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho.
A simile for "abhinibbatti":
Bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling regards form thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is myself.’ He regards feeling … perception … formations … consciousness thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is myself.’ If he walks, he walks close to those five aggregates subject to clinging. If he stands, he stands close to those five aggregates subject to clinging. If he sits down, he sits down close to those five aggregates subject to clinging. If he lies down, he lies down close to those five aggregates subject to clinging.

“Bhikkhus, have you seen the picture called ‘Faring On’?”

“Yes, venerable sir.”

“Even that picture called ‘Faring On’ has been designed (cittita; decorated; painted) in its diversity by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than that picture called ‘Faring On.’

Suppose, bhikkhus, an artist or a painter, using dye or lac or turmeric or indigo or crimson, would create the figure of a man or a woman complete in all its features on a well-polished plank or wall or canvas. So too, when the uninstructed worldling produces anything, it is only form that he produces; only feeling that he produces; only perception that he produces; only formations that he produces; only consciousness that he produces (abhinibbattento abhinibbatteti).

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.100/en/bodhi
"Satta" or "a being" is found in the definition of "birth" ("jati") as follows:
Yā tesaṃ tesaṃ sattānaṃ tamhi tamhi sattanikāye jāti sañjāti okkanti abhinibbatti khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṃ paṭilābho.
A simile for "satta":
Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used
,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?

Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'

Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3249
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:26 am

Feeling arising dependent upon bodily contact:
Just as an oil lamp burns in dependence on oil & wick; and from the termination of the oil & wick — and from not being provided any other sustenance — it goes out unnourished; even so, when sensing a feeling limited to the body, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' One discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Dinsdale
Posts: 6121
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:26 am

A simile for the preciousness of human birth:

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."
"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3249
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:35 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:26 am
A simile for the preciousness of human birth:

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole." "It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Its does not appear to be a proper simile because the above quote appears incomplete & out of context. The proper simile appears below:
Bhikkhus, suppose a man would throw a yoke with a single hole into the great ocean, and there was a blind turtle which would come to the surface once every hundred years. What do you think, bhikkhus, would that blind turtle, coming to the surface once every hundred years, insert its neck into that yoke with a single hole?

If it would ever do so, venerable sir, it would be only after a very long time.

Sooner, I say, would that blind turtle, coming to the surface once every hundred years, insert its neck into that yoke with a single hole than the fool who has gone once to the nether world would regain the human state. For what reason? Because here, bhikkhus, there is no conduct guided by the Dhamma, no righteous conduct, no wholesome activity, no meritorious activity. Here there prevails mutual devouring, the devouring of the weak. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering … the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.47/en/bodhi
Why would physical birth as a drug addict, pedophile, psychopath, slave or merely an ordinary person spending their life eating, shitting, eating, shitting, sleeping, etc, be "precious"? :roll:

Regardless, the above suttas do not appear to even mention the word "birth". The term "manussattaṃ" does not appear to mean "physical birth". The simile should make this clear since the purpose of a simile is to clarify. But the simile is not a turtle being born from a womb (even though turtles are hatched from eggs). The simile is merely a simile about a very low statistical probability. In other words, out of 100 posters in this forum, the simile in the sutta appears to be saying possibly 1 from a 100 posters might correctly understand the Buddha-Dhamma. :twothumbsup: Are you the One? :D
Mendicants, the appearance of six things is rare in the world.

“Channaṃ, bhikkhave, pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

What six?

Katamesaṃ channaṃ?

A Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha. A person who teaches the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One. Paccājāti in a civilized region. Unimpaired sense faculties ;) . Not being dull and stupid. Enthusiasm for skillful qualities.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.96/en/sujato
Licchavis, the appearance of five treasures is rare in the world.

Pañcannaṃ, licchavī, ratanānaṃ pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

What five?

Katamesaṃ pañcannaṃ?

The appearance of a Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.

Tathāgatassa arahato sammāsambuddhassa pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who explains the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One :twothumbsup: .

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desetā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who understands the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One.

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who practices in line with the teaching.

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā dhammānudhammappaṭipanno puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who is grateful and thankful.

kataññū katavedī puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

The appearance of these five treasures is rare in the world.”

Imesaṃ kho, licchavī, pañcannaṃ ratanānaṃ pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmin”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.143/en/sujato
Its seems to be the case, based on the suttas above, that what is "rare" in the world is understanding the Buddha-Dhamma.

Dinsdale
Posts: 6121
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:07 pm

Simile for contact ( phassa ):

"Just as if, your majesty, two hands are clapping together, one of these hands is to be understood as the eye, and the other as a visual object, and the coming together of the two of them is contact."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... 3-08-hands
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
Posts: 6121
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:08 pm

Simile for ignorance:

16. "Cunda, it is impossible that one who is himself sunk in the mire[23] should pull out another who is sunk in the mire. But it is possible, Cunda, that one not sunk in the mire himself should pull out another who is sunk in the mire."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .html#mire
Buddha save me from new-agers!

James Tan
Posts: 1074
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by James Tan » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:32 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:35 am
Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:26 am
A simile for the preciousness of human birth:

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole." "It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Its does not appear to be a proper simile because the above quote appears incomplete & out of context. The proper simile appears below:
Bhikkhus, suppose a man would throw a yoke with a single hole into the great ocean, and there was a blind turtle which would come to the surface once every hundred years. What do you think, bhikkhus, would that blind turtle, coming to the surface once every hundred years, insert its neck into that yoke with a single hole?

If it would ever do so, venerable sir, it would be only after a very long time.

Sooner, I say, would that blind turtle, coming to the surface once every hundred years, insert its neck into that yoke with a single hole than the fool who has gone once to the nether world would regain the human state. For what reason? Because here, bhikkhus, there is no conduct guided by the Dhamma, no righteous conduct, no wholesome activity, no meritorious activity. Here there prevails mutual devouring, the devouring of the weak. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering … the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.47/en/bodhi
Why would physical birth as a drug addict, pedophile, psychopath, slave or merely an ordinary person spending their life eating, shitting, eating, shitting, sleeping, etc, be "precious"? :roll:

Regardless, the above suttas do not appear to even mention the word "birth". The term "manussattaṃ" does not appear to mean "physical birth". The simile should make this clear since the purpose of a simile is to clarify. But the simile is not a turtle being born from a womb (even though turtles are hatched from eggs). The simile is merely a simile about a very low statistical probability. In other words, out of 100 posters in this forum, the simile in the sutta appears to be saying possibly 1 from a 100 posters might correctly understand the Buddha-Dhamma. :twothumbsup: Are you the One? :D
Mendicants, the appearance of six things is rare in the world.

“Channaṃ, bhikkhave, pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

What six?

Katamesaṃ channaṃ?

A Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha. A person who teaches the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One. Paccājāti in a civilized region. Unimpaired sense faculties ;) . Not being dull and stupid. Enthusiasm for skillful qualities.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.96/en/sujato
Licchavis, the appearance of five treasures is rare in the world.

Pañcannaṃ, licchavī, ratanānaṃ pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

What five?

Katamesaṃ pañcannaṃ?

The appearance of a Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha.

Tathāgatassa arahato sammāsambuddhassa pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who explains the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One :twothumbsup: .

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desetā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who understands the teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One.

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who practices in line with the teaching.

tathāgatappaveditassa dhammavinayassa desitassa viññātā dhammānudhammappaṭipanno puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ,

A person who is grateful and thankful.

kataññū katavedī puggalo dullabho lokasmiṃ.

The appearance of these five treasures is rare in the world.”

Imesaṃ kho, licchavī, pañcannaṃ ratanānaṃ pātubhāvo dullabho lokasmin”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.143/en/sujato
Its seems to be the case, based on the suttas above, that what is "rare" in the world is understanding the Buddha-Dhamma.
To be born as a Human being is precious ,
Without which Understanding of the Buddha dhamma is Not possible if you are born as a turtle !

:popcorn:
:reading:

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3249
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:31 pm

James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:32 pm
To be born as a Human being is precious , Without which Understanding of the Buddha dhamma is Not possible if you are born as a turtle !
There is no need to re-post or quote my entire post; particularly when you do not read the sutta quotes in that post. The Buddha did not use the word "precious". The idea of "precious" is Mahayana. The Buddha used the word "rare". 7 billion homo sapiens is not rare. You seem to be posting your own ideas rather than posting from the Pali suttas. The Buddha said in many suttas what is "rare". What is rare, according to the suttas, appears to be understanding and realising the Dhamma.
Sooner, I say, would that blind turtle, coming to the surface once every hundred years, insert its neck into that yoke with a single hole than the fool who has gone once to the nether world would regain the human state. For what reason? Because here, bhikkhus, there is no conduct guided by the Dhamma, no righteous conduct, no wholesome activity, no meritorious activity. Here there prevails mutual devouring, the devouring of the weak. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering … the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering.

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.47/en/bodhi

「比丘們!猶如男子如果在大海投入一個有單孔的軛,而在那裡有隻盲龜,如果牠每一百年會浮出[水面]一次。比丘們!你們怎麼想:是否那隻盲龜每一百年浮出一次時,能將頭伸入那有單孔之軛中呢?」

「大德!如果在某時或其他時候,經過長時間後的話。」

「比丘們!我說,那每一百年浮出一次的盲龜,能將頭伸入有單孔之軛中,要比愚者落入下界一次,[再回到]人的狀態快,那是什麼原因呢?比丘們!因為在這裡沒有法行、正行,善業、福業,比丘們!在這裡輾轉吞食,存在吞食弱者,那是什麼原因呢?比丘們!因為不得見四聖諦,哪四個呢?苦聖諦……(中略)導向苦滅道跡聖諦。

比丘們!因此,在這裡,『這是苦』應該作努力,……(中略)『這是導向苦滅道跡』應該作努力。」

SN 56.47 https://suttacentral.net/sn56.47/zh/zhuang

James Tan
Posts: 1074
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by James Tan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:58 am

Hmm, gold seems to be precious but not rare ,
no worries . One could find it everywhere nowadays .
:reading:

whynotme
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by whynotme » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:43 am

James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:32 pm
To be born as a Human being is precious ,
Without which Understanding of the Buddha dhamma is Not possible if you are born as a turtle !

:popcorn:
To be born as human is not only precious, but rare, if you consider the possibility.

Let say how many visible lives out there? Maybe 8 billions of human

Now, how many other life form out there? In your house, there are maybe millions other creatures hide somewhere. Some ant hives somewhere in your house, in your garden, may contain thousands creature.

In some of your furniture, wood, or food, some tiny creatures maybe are eating it.

What is the animal realm? The ant, the bug, the worm.. how many of them just in a hive? Million to billions, just in a large hive.

In a forest, a cubic meter of dirt may contain millions creatures. And consider the whole earth, the ocean, the chance for a creature to be human is less than a trillion, which is rarer than lottery.
Please stop following me

James Tan
Posts: 1074
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Are there similes given in the sutra pitaka for each step of Dependant origination?

Post by James Tan » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:57 am

whynotme wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:43 am
James Tan wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:32 pm
To be born as a Human being is precious ,
Without which Understanding of the Buddha dhamma is Not possible if you are born as a turtle !

:popcorn:
To be born as human is not only precious, but rare, if you consider the possibility.

Let say how many visible lives out there? Maybe 8 billions of human

Now, how many other life form out there? In your house, there are maybe millions other creatures hide somewhere. Some ant hives somewhere in your house, in your garden, may contain thousands creature.

In some of your furniture, wood, or food, some tiny creatures maybe are eating it.

What is the animal realm? The ant, the bug, the worm.. how many of them just in a hive? Million to billions, just in a large hive.

In a forest, a cubic meter of dirt may contain millions creatures. And consider the whole earth, the ocean, the chance for a creature to be human is less than a trillion, which is rarer than lottery.
:namaste:
:reading:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests