Identity View

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
DarrenM
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:33 pm

Re: Identity View

Post by DarrenM »

So in line with this Sutta, Identity is “these five clinging Aggregates”. Identity View comes about when an ordinary person “regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form”, and the sane for the other 5 Aggregates.

This means the Sutta is presuming a view that Self has something to do with at least one of the Five Aggregates. The Sutta states that Noble ones do not regard Self as anything to do with any of the Aggregates.

What the ordinary person does not understand that it is Craving that is the origin of Identity View, and the Cessation of Craving is the Cessation of Identity View, with the Noble Eightfold path leading to the Cessation of Craving. This the Sutta does state.

So to the argument of self, no-self. This Sutta seems to say that for the Noble ones there isn’t a self to be found amongst or separate/apart from the Aggregates. There is nowhere else a Self could possibly be other than that. Therefore there is no self.

What is Self (Atta) though?, where is it defined in the Suttas?
‘I’ll say it’s the opposite of what’s impermanent, suffering and perishable, as per SN22.59,

“What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir.”
“Is feeling permanent or impermanent?… Is perception permanent or impermanent?… Are volitional formations permanent or impermanent?… Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”— “Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir.”

So Self (Atta), would be something permanent, happiness and not subject to change. That’s my understanding so far. I’d be interested in anyone with the view that the Buddha did not state there isn’t a Self.

Next onto the difference between Atta and Jivam? Anyone care to explain.
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
DarrenM
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:33 pm

Re: Identity View

Post by DarrenM »

DarrenM wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:20 pm So in line with this Sutta, Identity is “these five clinging Aggregates”. Identity View comes about when an ordinary person “regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form”, and the sane for the other 5 Aggregates.

This means the Sutta is presuming a view that Self has something to do with at least one of the Five Aggregates. The Sutta states that Noble ones do not regard Self as anything to do with any of the Aggregates.

What the ordinary person does not understand that it is Craving that is the origin of Identity View, and the Cessation of Craving is the Cessation of Identity View, with the Noble Eightfold path leading to the Cessation of Craving. This the Sutta does state.

So to the argument of self, no-self. This Sutta seems to say that for the Noble ones there isn’t a self to be found amongst or separate/apart from the Aggregates. There is nowhere else a Self could possibly be other than that. Therefore there is no self.

What is Self (Atta) though?, where is it defined in the Suttas?
‘I’ll say it’s the opposite of what’s impermanent, suffering and perishable, as per SN22.59,

“What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”—“Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir.”
“Is feeling permanent or impermanent?… Is perception permanent or impermanent?… Are volitional formations permanent or impermanent?… Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?”—“Impermanent, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”— “Suffering, venerable sir.”—“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”—“No, venerable sir.”

So Self (Atta), would be something permanent, happiness and not subject to change. That’s my understanding so far. I’d be interested in anyone with the view that the Buddha did not state there isn’t a Self.

Next onto the difference between Atta and Jivam, just seen a thread that may help.
“Householder, you have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick, but you shouldn’t rest content with the thought, ‘We have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.’ So you should train yourself, ‘Let’s periodically enter & remain in seclusion & rapture.’ That’s how you should train yourself.”
AN 5.176- Rapture
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cappuccino
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Re: Identity View

Post by cappuccino »

the teaching is selflessness

no thing is your self
Ontheway
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Re: Identity View

Post by Ontheway »

Dhammasaṅgaṇī - Nikkhepakaṇḍaṃ
1007.Tattha katamā sakkāyadiṭṭhi? Idha assutavā puthujjano ariyānaṃ adassāvī ariyadhammassa akovido ariyadhamme avinīto sappurisānaṃ adassāvī sappurisadhammassa akovido sappurisadhamme avinīto:

rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, rūpavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā rūpaṃ, rūpasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.

Vedanaṃ attato samanupassati, vedanāvantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā vedanaṃ, vedanāya vā attānaṃ.

Saññaṃ attato samanupassati, saññāvantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā saññaṃ, saññāya vā attānaṃ.

Saṅkhāre attato samanupassati, saṅkhāravantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā saṅkhāre, saṅkhāresu vā attānaṃ.

Viññāṇaṃ attato samanupassati, viññāṇavantaṃ vā attānaṃ, attani vā viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇasmiṃ vā attānaṃ.

Yā evarūpā diṭṭhi diṭṭhigataṃ diṭṭhigahanaṃ diṭṭhikantāro diṭṭhivisūkāyikaṃ diṭṭhivipphanditaṃ diṭṭhisaṃyojanaṃ gāho paṭiggāho abhiniveso parāmāso kummaggo micchāpatho micchattaṃ titthāyatanaṃ vipariyāsaggāho – ayaṃ vuccati sakkāyadiṭṭhi.
ENG:
What is the sakkāyadiṭṭhi?
Here an uninformed worldling, not in the habit of associating with Noble Ones, unskilled in the Teachings of the Noble Ones, untrained in the Teachings of the Noble Ones, not in the habit of associating with truthful persons, unskilled in the Teachings of the truthful persons, untrained in the Teachings of the truthful persons; perceives:

Rūpa as Self; the rest of the Aggregates as Self having Rūpa; Rūpa existing in Self; Self existing in Rūpa.

Vedanā as Self; the rest of the Aggregates as Self having Vedanā; Vedanā existing in Self; Self existing in Vedanā.

Saññā as Self; the rest of the Aggregates as Self having Saññā; Saññā existing in Self; Self existing in Saññā.

Saṅkhāra as Self; the rest of the Aggregates as Self having Saṅkhāra; Saṅkhāra existing in Self; Self existing in Saṅkhāra.

Viññāṇa as Self; the rest of the Aggregates as Self having Viññāṇa; Viññāṇa existing in Self; Self existing in Viññāṇa.

There are such (wrong) view, wrong view of that nature, the thicket of views, the wilderness of view, the thorny spike of view, the inconsistency of view, the fetter of view, obsession of view, persistent obsession of view, adherence to view, contagion (which is the wrong view), detestable path, wrong course, wrongness, base of wrong view, tenacity of view – this is sakkāyadiṭṭhi.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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