Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by StormBorn » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:39 pm

Buying meat in a food store definitely creates a demand. :popcorn: That demand creates a supply. The supplier kills beings. :pig: Therefore, the buyer has a hand in that killing. :stirthepot: Period.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

cookiemonster
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:02 pm

pitakele wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:24 pm
cookiemonster wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:29 pm

This could also apply to vegetable foods, in light of the Vinaya rule: "The damaging of a living plant is to be confessed."
The vinaya rules regarding not damaging vegetables, seeds & crops have mostly been instigated so to not offend laypeople,. e.g. farmers, not because there is anything instrinsically akusala in these actions (although being mindful of others' sensitivities & protecting the environment etc. can be done with kusala intentions). The qualitative difference with flesh foods is that killing of living beings is required. No matter which way this is rationalized, someone along the way is making bad kamma. Saṃsāra is, indeed, problematic 😊
I thought committing an pacittiya offense is intrinsically akusala.

cookiemonster
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:04 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:39 pm
Buying meat in a food store definitely creates a demand. :popcorn: That demand creates a supply. The supplier kills beings. :pig: Therefore, the buyer has a hand in that killing. :stirthepot: Period.
Under that logic: Buying vegetables in a food store creates a demand. That demand creates a supply. The suppliers and farmers, very likely consumers of meat, harvests and ships those vegetables. Meat suppliers supply the suppliers and farmers with meat. Therefore a vegetarian also has a hand in that killing. Period.

User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by StormBorn » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:58 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:04 pm
StormBorn wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:39 pm
Buying meat in a food store definitely creates a demand. :popcorn: That demand creates a supply. The supplier kills beings. :pig: Therefore, the buyer has a hand in that killing. :stirthepot: Period.
Under that logic: Buying vegetables in a food store creates a demand. That demand creates a supply. The suppliers and farmers, very likely consumers of meat, harvests and ships those vegetables. Meat suppliers supply the suppliers and farmers with meat. Therefore a vegetarian also has a hand in that killing. Period.
When one buys vegetables, does he/she requests farmers to eat meat? :rofl:

And where the Buddha said eating a vegi is similar to killing a being?
Last edited by StormBorn on Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

cookiemonster
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:06 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:58 pm
cookiemonster wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:04 pm
StormBorn wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:39 pm
Buying meat in a food store definitely creates a demand. :popcorn: That demand creates a supply. The supplier kills beings. :pig: Therefore, the buyer has a hand in that killing. :stirthepot: Period.
Under that logic: Buying vegetables in a food store creates a demand. That demand creates a supply. The suppliers and farmers, very likely consumers of meat, harvests and ships those vegetables. Meat suppliers supply the suppliers and farmers with meat. Therefore a vegetarian also has a hand in that killing. Period.
When one buy vegetables, does he/she request farmers to eat meat? :rofl:

And where the Buddha said eating a vegi is similar to killing a being?
The vegetable-buyer isn't necessarily requesting that farmers eat meat, just like the meat-buyer isn't necessarily requesting that suppliers kill beings.

To my knowledge, the Buddha did not say eating vegetables is similar to killing a being (one of the five lower precepts), but if you want to equate eating meat with killing beings, then under the same logic, eating vegetables would fall under another one of the higher precepts: "The damaging of a living plant is to be confessed."

dharmacorps
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by dharmacorps » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:08 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:39 pm
Buying meat in a food store definitely creates a demand. :popcorn: That demand creates a supply. The supplier kills beings. :pig: Therefore, the buyer has a hand in that killing. :stirthepot: Period.
Where is the basis for this in the pali canon? :spy:

User avatar
StormBorn
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by StormBorn » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:23 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:06 pm
just like the meat-buyer isn't necessarily requesting that suppliers kill beings
Sometimes the seller can be the supplier/butcher too. Anyhow, buyer's demand is the reason why a seller requests suppliers to provide meat. If no one buys meat (no demand), no seller woudn't bother to sell meat.
cookiemonster wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:06 pm
"The damaging of a living plant is to be confessed."
That rule is for monastics, right? Otherwise, I will fall into some "akusala" by leaning to a wall (another monk rule) :tongue:
dharmacorps wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:08 pm
Where is the basis for this in the pali canon? :spy:
I don't have the reference now, but once a monk told me they can't accept meat, if there's a suspicion that animal was killed for monk. He said, it's to avoid creating any demand for meat from monk's side.

Edit: Found the reference (from BMI II, 377).
Furthermore, even cooked fish or meat of an allowable kind is unallowable if the bhikkhu sees, hears, or suspects that the animal was killed specifically for the purpose of feeding bhikkhus ( Mv.VI.31.14 ).
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

cookiemonster
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:21 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:23 pm
cookiemonster wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:06 pm
just like the meat-buyer isn't necessarily requesting that suppliers kill beings
Sometimes the seller can be the supplier/butcher too. Anyhow, buyer's demand is the reason why a seller requests suppliers to provide meat. If no one buys meat (no demand), no seller woudn't bother to sell meat.
cookiemonster wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:06 pm
"The damaging of a living plant is to be confessed."
That rule is for monastics, right? Otherwise, I will fall into some "akusala" by leaning to a wall (another monk rule) :tongue:
IMO there is no binary "right" or "wrong" in Buddhism. Instead, there's a continuum scale of skillfulness<->unskillfulness.

santa100
Posts: 3112
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by santa100 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:16 pm

user99 wrote:Its forbidden to order Meat and eat it so i Wonder this
MN 55 wrote:Jīvaka, those who speak thus: ‘They kill living creatures on purpose for the recluse Gotama, and the recluse Gotama knowingly makes use of meat killed on purpose and specially provided for him’, these are not quoting my own words, but are misrepresenting me with what is not true, with what is not fact. I, Jīvaka, say that in three cases meat may not be used: if it is seen, heard, suspected (to have been killed on purpose for a monk). In these three cases I, Jīvaka, say that meat may not be used. But I, Jīvaka, say that in three cases meat may be used: if it is not seen, heard, suspected (to have been killed on purpose for a monk). In these three cases I, Jīvaka, say that meat may be used.

User avatar
pitakele
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by pitakele » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:40 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:02 pm
I thought committing an pacittiya offense is intrinsically akusala.
Knowingly breaking a vinaya rule may be akusala for a monastic, but destroying vegetable life is not akusala in itself as is the intentional killing of living beings.
now here = nowhere

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2148
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Zom » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:51 pm

Under that logic: Buying vegetables in a food store creates a demand. That demand creates a supply. The suppliers and farmers, very likely consumers of meat, harvests and ships those vegetables. Meat suppliers supply the suppliers and farmers with meat. Therefore a vegetarian also has a hand in that killing. Period.
Indeed. Road workers build roads. Meat suppliers use those roads to sell their stuff. This is why road workers also have a hand in killing 8-)

cookiemonster
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:56 pm

pitakele wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:40 pm
cookiemonster wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:02 pm
I thought committing an pacittiya offense is intrinsically akusala.
Knowingly breaking a vinaya rule may be akusala for a monastic, but destroying vegetable life is not akusala in itself as is the intentional killing of living beings.
They're akusala to different degrees ...

TRobinson465
Posts: 494
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 5:29 pm
Location: United States

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by TRobinson465 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:53 am

OMG ppl you cant compare Vinaya rules with kamma. Thats like saying growing your hair too long (more than 2 finger widths) or talking to the opposite gender out of earshot of another person is intrinsically bad for anyone to do. It is not. its is just not proper for monastics to do. Damaging vegetables is not bad kamma for everyone, it is just improper for monastics.

That said the OP asked if it is "Okay" to buy meat as in not any kind of bad kamma that causes peril on your behalf. and I would say the answer is yes. For something that big im pretty sure the Buddha would bother pointing it out explicitly, and various suttas do imply it is "okay", as in the earlier posts. Of course some ppl say just because something is "okay" it isnt right and thats their opinion.

IMO its best not getting too knitpicky about all the details. You cant seperate yourself from harm completely in todays world, from the clothes you wear to the electronics you are using right now somebody was likely abused in the process. Even vegetables cause harm to living beings since most farms use pesticides. Its great if you want to be a vegetarian and save animals but you cant go around blaming ppl for taking a part in kamma that has so many degrees of seperation. If that was the case nobody could buy anything without getting blamed.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

User avatar
Keith
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:23 pm
Contact:

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Keith » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:35 am

What I sometimes observe:

Person A: "Can I do this?"
Person B: "Check the rule book!"

What I see less frequently:

Person A: "Should I do this?"
Person B: "Check your conscience."

Just because an act is or isn't forbidden in the Pali Canon shouldn't make its inclusion or omission in the book your only guiding principle. I became vegan because I could not justify to myself contributing to the suffering of others and wanted to reduce the harm I was causing, not because an ancient text said so.

cookiemonster
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:42 am

Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:04 pm

TRobinson465 wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:53 am
OMG ppl you cant compare Vinaya rules with kamma. Thats like saying growing your hair too long (more than 2 finger widths) or talking to the opposite gender out of earshot of another person is intrinsically bad for anyone to do. It is not. its is just not proper for monastics to do. Damaging vegetables is not bad kamma for everyone, it is just improper for monastics.
It's all relative.
There are many kinds of standards and procedures related to the Vinaya that must be studied, practiced and observed. Taken together, they are called vinaya-kamma. Some vinaya-kamma are our own personal responsibility in training ourselves. For example —

1. Kaya-kamma: Act only in ways that are correct in light of the Vinaya and that are called "karaniya-kicca," things to be done (such as observing the precepts of the Patimokkha). Whatever goes against the Buddha's ordinances should be renounced. Such things are termed "akaraniya-kicca," things not to be done.

2. Vaci-kamma: Any words whose purpose would be incorrect in light of the Vinaya should not be spoken in any circumstances. Speak only those words that would be classed as Right Speech.

3. Mano-kamma: We are bound to have thoughts that tend toward the accumulation of defilement and lead to transgressions of the training rules, such as abhijjha: greed focused on the four necessities of life (food, clothing, shelter, and medicine); byapada: ill will and malevolence; miccha-ditthi: wrong views that would draw the mind into ways running counter to the standards of the Vinaya.
- https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/duties.html

IMO breaking the five precepts are "intrinsically unskillful" for humans to do, because to break them is to generate kamma-vipaka that sets up roadblocks which hinders rebirth into the human realm. Breaking the higher precepts/vinaya rules are likewise "intrinsically unskillful" for those intent on nibbana, because to break them is to generate kamma-vipaka that sets up roadblocks which hinders rebirth into the higher realms on the way to nibbana.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests