Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

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user99
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Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by user99 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:53 pm

Its forbidden to order Meat and eat it so i Wonder this

TRobinson465
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by TRobinson465 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:28 pm

user99 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:53 pm
Its forbidden to order Meat and eat it so i Wonder this
As long as the meat comes from an animal that is already dead its fine in Theravada Buddhism. You cant order like a live fish or lobster that will die after you order it.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:08 am

Greetings,
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:28 pm
As long as the meat comes from an animal that is already dead its fine in Theravada Buddhism. You cant order like a live fish or lobster that will die after you order it.
That may be true for monastics... can you cite anything that says this is also true for lay people?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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robertk
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by robertk » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:22 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:08 am
Greetings,
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:28 pm
As long as the meat comes from an animal that is already dead its fine in Theravada Buddhism. You cant order like a live fish or lobster that will die after you order it.
That may be true for monastics... can you cite anything that says this is also true for lay people?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Absolutely true for Buddhist laypeople. However the naked asecetics and others of wrong view thought differently.
http://www.aimwell.org/siha.html
here is the intro by ven. Pesala
Introduction

This discourse to General Sīha shows why many Buddhists are neither vegetarians nor vegans. General Sīha was a follower of the Nigaṇṭhā (the Jains). The discourse makes it clear that:–

The Buddha ate meat when it was offered.
A Stream-winner (General Sīha) can buy meat or order it to be bought, although a Stream-winner is incapable of intentionally killing any living-being even to save his/her own life.
Those who hold wrong-views will blame Buddhists for eating meat.
The Buddha teaches the not-doing of any unwholesome deeds, and the cutting off of lust, ill-will, and delusion, leading to the relief of suffering
.

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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:23 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:08 am
Greetings,
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:28 pm
As long as the meat comes from an animal that is already dead its fine in Theravada Buddhism. You cant order like a live fish or lobster that will die after you order it.
That may be true for monastics... can you cite anything that says this is also true for lay people?

Metta,
Paul. :)
I dont know of anything in the Pali canon that specifically says lay people can or cannot eat/buy meat. As you know it is explicitly stated for monastics.
In the Āmagandha Sutta, the Buddha recalls a story from the previous Buddha, Kassapa Buddha, which seems to imply that eating meat does not count as one of the five precepts for laypeople or as an "unskillful" action per se.

Taking life, beating, wounding, binding, stealing, lying, deceiving,
worthless knowledge, adultery; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
5. In this world those individuals who are unrestrained in sensual pleasures, who are greedy
for sweet things, who are associated with impure actions, who are of nihilistic views,
[which are] crooked and difficult to follow, this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
6. In this world those who are rude, arrogant, backbiting, treacherous, unkind, excessively
egoistic, miserly, and do not give anything to anybody; this is stench. Not the eating of
meat.
7. Anger, pride, obstinacy, antagonism, deceit, envy, boasting, excessive egoism, association
with the immoral; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
8. Those who are of bad morals, refuse to pay their debts, slanderous, deceitful in their
dealings, pretentious, those who in this world, being the vilest of men, commit such
wrong things; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
9. Those person who, in this world, are uncontrolled towards living beings, who are bent
on injuring others, having taken their belongings; immoral, cruel, harsh, disrespectful;
this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
10. Those who attack these living beings either out of greed or of hostility and are always
bent upon evil, go to darkness after death, and fall headlong into woeful states; this is
stench. Not the eating of meat.
11. Abstaining from fish and meat, nakedness, shaving of the head, matted hair, smearing
with ashes, wearing rough deerskins, attending the sacrificial fire; none of the various
penances in the world performed for unhealthy ends, neither incantations, oblations,
sacrifices nor seasonal observances, purify a person who has not overcome his doubts.
http://www.aimwell.org/Amagandha%20Sutta.pdf
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:24 am

robertk wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:22 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:08 am
Greetings,
TRobinson465 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:28 pm
As long as the meat comes from an animal that is already dead its fine in Theravada Buddhism. You cant order like a live fish or lobster that will die after you order it.
That may be true for monastics... can you cite anything that says this is also true for lay people?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Absolutely true for Buddhist laypeople. However the naked asecetics and others of wrong view thought differently.
http://www.aimwell.org/siha.html
this is probably an even better example than mine lol.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:32 am

user99 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:53 pm
Its forbidden to order Meat and eat it so i Wonder this
Not explicitly, though I think it's worth considering:

1. The first precept, not to take life;
2. Dealing in butchery as an example of wrong livelihood;
3. The path factor of Right Intention, which includes developing harmlessness.

Note that if you choose to buy meat, then you are expecting somebody else to break the first precept and deal in butchery. Also you are causing harm indirectly. I think most people here will have access to non-meat products, so there is a choice for most.
Last edited by Dinsdale on Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:33 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:08 am
That may be true for monastics... can you cite anything that says this is also true for lay people?
The five precepts are based on the principle of harmlessness, which is an aspect of Right Intention. As is the 3-fold rule.

It's important to consider the spirit of such teachings, and not just the letter.
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pitakele
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by pitakele » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:51 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:33 am
It's important to consider the spirit of such teachings, and not just the letter.
Even though Buddha didn't teach his followers to be vegetarian, I think it important to be thoughtful about one's consumer habits. In modern times, most of us are very removed from the mass means of producing food, esp. the production of a huge variety of flesh foods. In a way, it is similar to removing the aged, dying and mentally ill to institutions - out of sight, out of mind. We don't confront reality and this can be a condition to grow ignorance. Flesh foods are bought in supermarkets etc. which promotes a false sense of distance from the fact that beings have lost their lives due to (largely) the demand of consumers. Not only has a being lost its life to become someone's meal, but also that meal has been provided by an unfortunate individual with wrong livelihood who is making bad kamma by intentionally killing living beings. Even though some justify eating flesh saying they haven't seen, heard or suspect it being killed for them (tikoti is a ruling for Sangha, not laity), that food has arrived as as a result of another's bad kamma. Are we really happy to have someone make bad kamma on our behalf (despite the seeming degrees of separation)? As samsāra is fraught with many pitfalls and dangers, it is wise to train as much as possible in thoughtfulness.
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:48 am

pitakele wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:51 pm
In modern times, most of us are very removed from the mass means of producing food, esp. the production of a huge variety of flesh foods.
I suspect there would be more vegetarians if everybody had to slaughter and prepare their own meat.
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by pitakele » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:10 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:48 am
I suspect there would be more vegetarians if everybody had to slaughter and prepare their own meat.
Yes, everything is extremely sanitized these days in the West with most meat purchases pre-wrapped in the supermarket, minus the sights and smells of a butcher's shop.
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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by AgarikaJ » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:48 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:32 am
user99 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:53 pm
Its forbidden to order Meat and eat it so i Wonder this
Not explicitly, though I think it's worth considering:

1. The first precept, not to take life;
2. Dealing in butchery as an example of wrong livelihood;
3. The path factor of Right Intention, which includes developing harmlessness.

Note that if you choose to buy meat, then you are expecting somebody else to break the first precept and deal in butchery. Also you are causing harm indirectly. I think most people here will have access to non-meat products, so there is a choice for most.
As always, I believe intention to be the measuring quality. If the OP already has to ask the question, I think he has also already recognized that there is a problem with consuming meat.

While in Thailand, quite often I was asked to hold the cow or even deal the blow when there was a slaughter, so that the bad Kamma will not befall any of the villagers. This is a very simplified and legalistic view of the Teachings which falls down when looking at the intent of minimizing harm.

Therefore I think Dinsdale has put it succinctly.

Knowing this, one might still choose to eat meat; the Teachings give this latitude as everything boils down to personal responsibility for ones own (spiritual) well-being.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]

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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:27 pm

user99 wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:53 pm
Its forbidden to order Meat and eat it so i Wonder this
It is not forbidden to laypeople.

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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by cookiemonster » Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:29 pm

pitakele wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:51 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:33 am
It's important to consider the spirit of such teachings, and not just the letter.
Even though Buddha didn't teach his followers to be vegetarian, I think it important to be thoughtful about one's consumer habits. In modern times, most of us are very removed from the mass means of producing food, esp. the production of a huge variety of flesh foods. In a way, it is similar to removing the aged, dying and mentally ill to institutions - out of sight, out of mind. We don't confront reality and this can be a condition to grow ignorance. Flesh foods are bought in supermarkets etc. which promotes a false sense of distance from the fact that beings have lost their lives due to (largely) the demand of consumers. Not only has a being lost its life to become someone's meal, but also that meal has been provided by an unfortunate individual with wrong livelihood who is making bad kamma by intentionally killing living beings. Even though some justify eating flesh saying they haven't seen, heard or suspect it being killed for them (tikoti is a ruling for Sangha, not laity), that food has arrived as as a result of another's bad kamma. Are we really happy to have someone make bad kamma on our behalf (despite the seeming degrees of separation)? As samsāra is fraught with many pitfalls and dangers, it is wise to train as much as possible in thoughtfulness.
This could also apply to vegetable foods, in light of the Vinaya rule: "The damaging of a living plant is to be confessed."

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Re: Is it okey to buy Meat in a foodstore and eat?

Post by pitakele » Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:24 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:29 pm

This could also apply to vegetable foods, in light of the Vinaya rule: "The damaging of a living plant is to be confessed."
The vinaya rules regarding not damaging vegetables, seeds & crops have mostly been instigated so to not offend laypeople,. e.g. farmers, not because there is anything instrinsically akusala in these actions (although being mindful of others' sensitivities & protecting the environment etc. can be done with kusala intentions). The qualitative difference with flesh foods is that killing of living beings is required. No matter which way this is rationalized, someone along the way is making bad kamma. Saṃsāra is, indeed, problematic 😊
Last edited by pitakele on Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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