Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

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canadianbuddhist
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Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by canadianbuddhist » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:12 pm

Hello,

I wonder what is the philosophy of Buddhism. I guess the whole philosophy of Buddhism is Anatta. (Not self)
But, with meditation traditions, it seems that more people and instructors are lay more emphasis on the destination (Nirvana and its path) and not to understand Anatta. Also , I wonder can someone tell me how the noble eight fold path (ariaya atthangika magga) and Anatta concept to be understood? how to synthesize these two? where we should put more emphasis on? Also how clearly can we understand these two and how they co-exist if so?

JohnK
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Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by JohnK » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:35 pm

Here is a classic presentation of the Eightfold Path by Bhikkhu Bodhi in case you are not familiar with it -- well worth the time to read.
It may help with your confusion.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... toend.html
:anjali:

Edit: Some would say that the Buddha did not teach a philosophy, but a pragmatic path to the end of suffering (notice my "signature quote").
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

canadianbuddhist
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Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by canadianbuddhist » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:14 pm

Well, this is not what I want to know. I want somebody here to briefly explain to me about the connection of these two and etc.

cookiemonster
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Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by cookiemonster » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:30 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:12 pm
Hello,

I wonder what is the philosophy of Buddhism. I guess the whole philosophy of Buddhism is Anatta. (Not self)
But, with meditation traditions, it seems that more people and instructors are lay more emphasis on the destination (Nirvana and its path) and not to understand Anatta. Also , I wonder can someone tell me how the noble eight fold path (ariaya atthangika magga) and Anatta concept to be understood? how to synthesize these two? where we should put more emphasis on? Also how clearly can we understand these two and how they co-exist if so?
They're all facets of the same jewel, IMO.

The Noble Eightfold Path is developed which unveils anatta and results in nibbana.

JohnK
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Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by JohnK » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:49 pm

The connection, very briefly (and following Thanissaro):
Developing the Path can lead to the perception of not-self which can support dispassion which can lead to the goal.

(It might be helpful to those who may reply to your post if you were a bit more precise about what is confusing.)
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

SarathW
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Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:42 pm

I suspect it was just a convention of the time
It is important to remember that there is a tenfold path with ending right knowledge and right release.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

rightviewftw
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Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:22 pm

“Bhikkhus, for a virtuous person, one whose behavior is virtuous, no volition need be exerted: ‘Let non-regret arise in me.’ It is natural that non-regret arises in a virtuous person, one whose behavior is virtuous.
* “For one without regret no volition need be exerted: ‘Let joy arise in me.’ It is natural that joy arises in one without regret.
As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "What do you think, Rahula — is the eye constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"
"No, lord."
"What do you think — are forms,consciousness, contact or whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness:[1] Is it constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"
"No, lord."
"What do you think, Rahula — is the ear, is the nose, is the tongue, is the body, is the intellect constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"
"No, lord."
"What do you think — are ideas constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"
"No, lord."
"What do you think — is consciousness at the intellect constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"
"No, lord."
"What do you think — is contact at the intellect constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"
"No, lord."
"What do you think — whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: Is it constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"
"No, lord."
"Seeing thus, Rahula, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye as a mode of feeling, a mode of perception, a mode of fabrication, or a mode of consciousness: With that, too, he grows disenchanted.
"He grows disenchanted with the ear...
"He grows disenchanted with the nose...
"He grows disenchanted with the tongue...
"He grows disenchanted with the body...
"And what is the purpose of disenchantment? What is its reward?"

"Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward."

"And what is the purpose of dispassion? What is its reward?"

"Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward.
"Thus in this way, Ananda, skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward.

"In this way, Ananda, skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the consummation of arahantship."
Dhp c20;
"All created things are impermanent."
Seeing this with insight,
One becomes disenchanted with suffering.
This is the path to purity.

"All created things are suffering."
Seeing this with insight,
One becomes disenchanted with suffering.
This is the path to purity.

"All things are not-self."
Seeing this with insight,
One becomes disenchanted with suffering.
This is the path to purity.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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DooDoot
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Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by DooDoot » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:30 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:12 pm
the destination...Nirvana... the noble eight fold path (ariaya atthangika magga) and Anatta...
The Noble Eightfold Path was taught with the Four Noble Truths in the 1st sermon. The Four Noble Truths & Noble Eightfold Path do not explicitly mention anatta. The Four Noble Truths identify craving as the primary problem to be overcome via its prevention and abandonment. Therefore, the 7th factor the Noble Eightfold Path says in relation to abandoning cravings...
" ... a monk remains mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world ..."
Anatta was taught in the 2nd sermon as a more advanced, powerful & effective realisation. However, similar to the goal of the Four Noble Truths, the realisation of anatta will also destroy craving, as follows:
O monks, the well-instructed noble disciple, seeing [anatta] thus, gets wearied of form, gets wearied of feeling, gets wearied of perception, gets wearied of mental formations, gets wearied of consciousness. Being wearied he becomes passion-free. In his freedom from passion, he is emancipated.

2nd sermon
Therefore, if we are to place anatta within the Noble Eightfold Path, it would probably primarily form part of the 7th factor (Right Mindfulness), which, in practise, includes:

1. Seeing bodily phenomena as 'body' (rather than seeing bodily phenomena as 'self').

2. Seeing feelings as 'feeling' (rather than seeing feelings as 'self').

3. Seeing mental states as 'mentality' (rather than seeing mentality as 'self').

4. Seeing Dhammas as 'Dhammas' (rather than seeing Dhamma as 'self').

I hope this helps. :smile:

SarathW
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Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by SarathW » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:50 pm

Good answer DD.
:thumbsup:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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retrofuturist
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Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:22 pm

Greetings,
SarathW wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:50 pm
Good answer DD.
:thumbsup:
Agreed.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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DooDoot
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Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by DooDoot » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:22 am

Thank you, friends. :twothumbsup:

pegembara
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Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by pegembara » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:09 am

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:12 pm
Hello,

I wonder what is the philosophy of Buddhism. I guess the whole philosophy of Buddhism is Anatta. (Not self)
But, with meditation traditions, it seems that more people and instructors are lay more emphasis on the destination (Nirvana and its path) and not to understand Anatta.
I don't see how one can arrive at the destination(nibbana) without not only understanding but the realisation of anatta which is the path.
"Any kind of ....... whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near must, with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not my self.'

"Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness.

"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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diligence
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Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by diligence » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:16 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:12 pm
I wonder what is the philosophy of Buddhism. I guess the whole philosophy of Buddhism is Anatta. (Not self)
But, with meditation traditions, it seems that more people and instructors are lay more emphasis on the destination (Nirvana and its path) and not to understand Anatta. Also , I wonder can someone tell me how the noble eight fold path (ariaya atthangika magga) and Anatta concept to be understood? how to synthesize these two? where we should put more emphasis on? Also how clearly can we understand these two and how they co-exist if so?

If you have to use this term-philosophy, then I would say that the philosophy of Buddhism is dukkha(suffering, unsatisfactoriness,stress),not anatta.

The Buddha taught nothing other than dukkha and the elimination of it.

The noble eight fold path (ariya aṭṭhaṅgika magga) is the only way to the totally elimination of dukkha. :anjali:
With the arising of delight, there is the arising of suffering. With the cessation of delight, comes the cessation of suffering.

Mayaṃ sīlaṃ rakkhantā sappurisā bhavissāma.

Were it not for the Vinaya, and for those who continue to keep it alive to this day, there would be no Buddhism.

TRobinson465
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Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:33 am

diligence wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:16 pm
canadianbuddhist wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:12 pm
I wonder what is the philosophy of Buddhism. I guess the whole philosophy of Buddhism is Anatta. (Not self)
But, with meditation traditions, it seems that more people and instructors are lay more emphasis on the destination (Nirvana and its path) and not to understand Anatta. Also , I wonder can someone tell me how the noble eight fold path (ariaya atthangika magga) and Anatta concept to be understood? how to synthesize these two? where we should put more emphasis on? Also how clearly can we understand these two and how they co-exist if so?

If you have to use this term-philosophy, then I would say that the philosophy of Buddhism is dukkha(suffering, unsatisfactoriness,stress),not anatta.

The Buddha taught nothing other than dukkha and the elimination of it.

The noble eight fold path (ariya aṭṭhaṅgika magga) is the only way to the totally elimination of dukkha. :anjali:
Yes I agree, I wouldnt say the whole philosophy of Buddhism is anatta. If you had to simplify Buddhism into a short term its about suffering and the end of it.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: Confusion between Eight fold noble path and Anatta

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:34 am

anatta is just one of the things you must realize to end suffering.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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