Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by salayatananirodha » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:20 pm

salayatananirodha wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:09 am
What a person considers and reflects upon for a long time, to that his mind will bend and incline'.
(dhammapada)
It's since come to my attention that this quote is falsely attributed to the dhammapada. Not sure where it comes from.
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


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Nicolas
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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by Nicolas » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:38 pm

salayatananirodha wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:20 pm
salayatananirodha wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:09 am
What a person considers and reflects upon for a long time, to that his mind will bend and incline'.
(dhammapada)
It's since come to my attention that this quote is falsely attributed to the dhammapada. Not sure where it comes from.
Dvedhāvitakka Sutta (MN 19):
Whatever a mendicant frequently thinks about and considers becomes their heart’s inclination. (Sujato)
Whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. (Bodhi)
Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination of his awareness. (Ṭhānissaro)

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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by budo » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:21 pm

salayatananirodha wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:54 am
"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma — (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.

"Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans."

- Sivaka sutta

How would you interpret that?
Nihilism vs Free Will

Buddhism isn't a nihilist religion. If everything is 100% out of your control then there's nothing you can do, but in reality, at least 50% of it is in your control

When I say "in your control", I'm not speaking of a self. You can control a rental car and not own it at the same time. Likewise you can control the 5 aggregates that form your body and mind, and not own them at the same time.

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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 am

One person's vipāka is the manifestation of his or her past kamma. Being abused is vipāka; abusing others is kamma. All beings inherit their own kamma, they do not inherit the kamma of others.

Book of Ones
“It is impossible, monks, it cannot happen that bodily misconduct could give a desirable, enjoyable, pleasing result. That is not possible. However, it is possible, monks, that bodily misconduct could give an undesirable, unenjoyable, displeasing result. That is possible.”

“It is impossible, monks, it cannot happen that verbal misconduct could give a desirable, enjoyable, pleasing result. That is not possible. However, it is possible, monks, that verbal misconduct could give an undesirable, unenjoyable, displeasing result. That is possible.”

“It is impossible, monks, it cannot happen that mental misconduct could give a desirable, enjoyable, pleasing result. That is not possible. However, it is possible, monks, that mental misconduct could give an undesirable, unenjoyable, displeasing result. That is possible.”

“It is impossible, monks, it cannot happen that bodily good conduct could give an undesirable, unenjoyable, displeasing result. That is not possible. However, it is possible, monks, that bodily good conduct could give a desirable, enjoyable, pleasing result. That is possible.”

“It is impossible, monks, it cannot happen that verbal good conduct could give an undesirable, unenjoyable, displeasing result. That is not possible. However, it is possible, monks, that verbal good conduct could give a desirable, enjoyable, pleasing result. That is possible.”

“It is impossible, monks, it cannot happen that mental good conduct could give an undesirable, unenjoyable, displeasing result. That is not possible. However, it is possible, monks, that mental good conduct could give a desirable, enjoyable, pleasing result. That is possible.”
The corollary is that it is impossible for an undesirable, unenjoyable, displeasing result to be caused by anything other than bodily, verbal, or mental misconduct. If that misconduct was not done in this very life, which is usual in cases of child abuse, then it must have been done in a previous life.

Only two things are without a cause: space and nibbāna.
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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:00 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 am
The corollary is that it is impossible for an undesirable, unenjoyable, displeasing result to be caused by anything other than bodily, verbal, or mental misconduct. If that misconduct was not done in this very life, which is usual in cases of child abuse, then it must have been done in a previous life.
What?! How do you explain this quote then, which you translated yourself...
“No, great king, not all feeling has its root in kamma. There are eight causes of the arising of feelings. Excess of wind, of bile and of phlegm, the mixture of the three bodily fluids, variations in temperature, stress of circumstances, external agency and kamma. Whoever says, "It is only kamma that oppresses beings‟, thereby excludes the other seven reasons and that statement of theirs is wrong.

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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by robertk » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:29 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:00 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 am
The corollary is that it is impossible for an undesirable, unenjoyable, displeasing result to be caused by anything other than bodily, verbal, or mental misconduct. If that misconduct was not done in this very life, which is usual in cases of child abuse, then it must have been done in a previous life.
6
What?! How do you explain this quote then, which you translated yourself...
“No, great king, not all feeling has its root in kamma. There are eight causes of the arising of feelings. Excess of wind, of bile and of phlegm, the mixture of the three bodily fluids, variations in temperature, stress of circumstances, external agency and kamma. Whoever says, "It is only kamma that oppresses beings‟, thereby excludes the other seven reasons and that statement of theirs is wrong.
was it unclear when I explained it earlier in this thread?
To repeat:
there are 4 types of cittas classified as jati. Vipaka(result), kiriya , akusala and kusala. In a process of cittas that experiences an object such as sound only one moment is vipaka, result. The rest are of the other jatis(not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a flash and then many, many more moments that are not vipaka.

Now that very insignificant vipaka citta is certainly conditioned by kamma, that is by kamma done at an earlier time in the same life or in previous lives. However, even that vipaka is not conditioned solely by kamma.

The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 notes that there is no single fruit from a single cause:
"for here there is no single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. BUT with one representative fruit and cause given thus 'avijja paccaya vinnana' etc. For the blessed one uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit the inclinations of those being taught. And he does so in some instances because it is a basic factor and in some instances because it is obvious and in some instances because of being not shared"...."he mentioned a single cause in the passage 'diseases due to phlegm'(in the sutta above) because of obviousness,for here it is phlegm that is obvious, not kamma and so on

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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:34 am

robertk wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:29 am
was it unclear when I explained it earlier in this thread?
Oooh many confusing words and ideas. Non-comprehension from this end! Maybe if I read i again tomorrow it will make sense. Sleep time!

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Mr Man
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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by Mr Man » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:25 am

robertk wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:29 am
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:00 am
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 am
The corollary is that it is impossible for an undesirable, unenjoyable, displeasing result to be caused by anything other than bodily, verbal, or mental misconduct. If that misconduct was not done in this very life, which is usual in cases of child abuse, then it must have been done in a previous life.
6
What?! How do you explain this quote then, which you translated yourself...
“No, great king, not all feeling has its root in kamma. There are eight causes of the arising of feelings. Excess of wind, of bile and of phlegm, the mixture of the three bodily fluids, variations in temperature, stress of circumstances, external agency and kamma. Whoever says, "It is only kamma that oppresses beings‟, thereby excludes the other seven reasons and that statement of theirs is wrong.
was it unclear when I explained it earlier in this thread?
To repeat:
there are 4 types of cittas classified as jati. Vipaka(result), kiriya , akusala and kusala. In a process of cittas that experiences an object such as sound only one moment is vipaka, result. The rest are of the other jatis(not the result of kamma). The vipaka is like a flash and then many, many more moments that are not vipaka.

Now that very insignificant vipaka citta is certainly conditioned by kamma, that is by kamma done at an earlier time in the same life or in previous lives. However, even that vipaka is not conditioned solely by kamma.

The Sammohavinodani, chapter on Paticcasamuppada (PTS)p181 notes that there is no single fruit from a single cause:
"for here there is no single nor multiple fruit of any kind from a single cause, nor is there a single fruit from multiple causes, but only multiple fruit from multiple causes. BUT with one representative fruit and cause given thus 'avijja paccaya vinnana' etc. For the blessed one uses one representative cause and fruit when it is suitable for elegance in teaching and to suit the inclinations of those being taught. And he does so in some instances because it is a basic factor and in some instances because it is obvious and in some instances because of being not shared"...."he mentioned a single cause in the passage 'diseases due to phlegm'(in the sutta above) because of obviousness,for here it is phlegm that is obvious, not kamma and so on
So result is conditioned by action but experience can have multiple causes and the cause is not necessarily past action?

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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by robertk » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:36 am

I think it is better to consider my longer explanation, as I am not sure what your sentence exactly means.

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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:32 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 am
One person's vipāka is the manifestation of his or her past kamma. Being abused is vipāka; abusing others is kamma. All beings inherit their own kamma, they do not inherit the kamma of others.
Accepting this, is it the case that all that one experiences is necessarily vipaka? Unless that premise is established, it would be possible to say that one's experience of being abused, if it is vipaka, is caused by one's earlier negative kamma; but that one's experience of being abused might not be vipaka, and therefore is not caused by prior kamma.

From the AN quote, we can deduce that the unpleasant experience of being abused cannot be caused by good conduct of any sort:
“It is impossible, monks, it cannot happen that [...] good conduct could give an undesirable, unenjoyable, displeasing result. That is not possible.


We can also deduce that any experience of being abused might be the result of misconduct:
it is possible, monks, that [...] misconduct could give an undesirable, unenjoyable, displeasing result. That is possible.”


But none of that allows us to deduce that any particular unpleasant experience is necessarily the result of misconduct, even if that unpleasant experience is caused.

My inclination is to see all experience - pleasant or unpleasant - as being the result (vipaka) of the experiencing being's prior kammic activity. I incline to this idea because it is the most perfect theodicy I know of. Like Richard Gombrich, I am prepared to work at saving the theodicy (i.e. the solution to the problem of why apparently innocent beings suffer, and conversely why known scoundrels often get it easy) by seeing it in the following way:
It seems that karma operates on a grand scale, for example, in determining where one is born and when one dies. At first sight the example of the child with AIDS may appear to contradict this. But no. One must realise that karma must operate through some specific cause; it is, as it were, the cause behind causes. In that sense, the Buddha's answer to Moliya Sivaka is misleading, for kamma and the other causes cited are not on the same level.


(What the Buddha Thought, p. 21)

Any further help with this - especially references to suttas - would be gratefully received and read.

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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by Mr Man » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:06 am

robertk wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:36 am
I think it is better to consider my longer explanation, as I am not sure what your sentence exactly means.
Hi robertk

Vipaka (result) is conditioned by kamma (action). What is experienced is not just vipaka. Is that any clearer?

I noticed that you wrote
However, even that vipaka is not conditioned solely by kamma.

I thought that vipaka meant the result of kamma specifically.

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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by santa100 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:09 pm

justindesilva wrote:I have been questioning the same after the tsunami in 2004 south of sri lanka. nearly a hundred thousand or more of the population died from the tsunami. A buddhist priest who could escape but was reluctant to get off the car got washed in to the sea. 14 from the same family who visited Galle from a safe area got washed in to the sea. In a train about 1500 who travelled died trapped in the water, while some others had miraculous escapes. How can we relate such a mass catastrophe on humans on kamma.
It's because humans have been creating unimaginably massive catastrophes on their fellow human beings throughout history. All the wars, especially ancient wars involved one large army committing mass killing of entire cities or states, numbers of which easily surpass the hundred thousand scale. Armies facing each other not only in the tens of thousands but in hundreds of thousands where everyone indulged in their orgy of killing. The battle of Stalingrad, at the time of the Soviet counter-offensive, there were ~ 1,040,000 men involved on the German side, and ~ 1,143,000 on the Soviet side.

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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by robertk » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:40 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:06 am
robertk wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:36 am
I think it is better to consider my longer explanation, as I am not sure what your sentence exactly means.
Hi robertk

Vipaka (result) is conditioned by kamma (action). What is experienced is not just vipaka. Is that any clearer?

I noticed that you wrote
However, even that vipaka is not conditioned solely by kamma.

I thought that vipaka meant the result of kamma specifically.
thanks. That is clear now.
It is as you say, except that, as the quote from.the Sammohavinodani explained, even vipaka citta - which is conditioned to arise by past kamma, has other supporting conditions.

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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by TRobinson465 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:59 am

From my understanding. most things viewed in the western world as "bad luck" that was out of your control is usually the result of kamma. Although id imagine some things arent. such as the things that effect a large area like drought, where maybe most of the ppl who are effected have some kinda kamma but some of the effects are spilled over to ppl who don't
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Re: Are negative events always the result of bad kamma - i.e. abuse done to children, rape, etc?

Post by TRobinson465 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:01 am

santa100 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:09 pm
justindesilva wrote:I have been questioning the same after the tsunami in 2004 south of sri lanka. nearly a hundred thousand or more of the population died from the tsunami. A buddhist priest who could escape but was reluctant to get off the car got washed in to the sea. 14 from the same family who visited Galle from a safe area got washed in to the sea. In a train about 1500 who travelled died trapped in the water, while some others had miraculous escapes. How can we relate such a mass catastrophe on humans on kamma.
It's because humans have been creating unimaginably massive catastrophes on their fellow human beings throughout history. All the wars, especially ancient wars involved one large army committing mass killing of entire cities or states, numbers of which easily surpass the hundred thousand scale. Armies facing each other not only in the tens of thousands but in hundreds of thousands where everyone indulged in their orgy of killing. The battle of Stalingrad, at the time of the Soviet counter-offensive, there were ~ 1,040,000 men involved on the German side, and ~ 1,143,000 on the Soviet side.
WWII is also a good example. it effect the whole world, but i dont think every single person effected by it had kamma. obvoiusly certain ppl did. the jews in Germany at the time, the people who lived near popular bomb targets. but since it effect every1 in such a large scale id assume some ppl didnt have that particular kamma.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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