insight requires access concentration?

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Post Reply
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2800
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

insight requires access concentration?

Post by robertk » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:09 pm

As several of us have said "dry" is somewhat confusing characterisation of such practices, since insight requires, according to the commentaries, to develop the jhana factors to access-concentration level. And that is what such practices aim for. That would imply that it is partly a samatha practice
this was said on another topic.
we can discuss here.

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16272
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: insight requires access concentration?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:56 pm

Thanks Robert.

Here are some relevant passages from:

A Comprehensive Manual of the Abhidhamma:The Abhidhammatthasangaha of Acariya Anuruddha, With commentary by Bhikkhu Bodhi.
Free PDF: http://store.pariyatti.org/Comprehensiv ... _4362.html
IX. KAMMATTHANASANGAHA
...
§22 Stages of Purification
In insight meditation, the compendium of purifications is seven-
fold: (1) purification of virtue, (2) purification of mind, (3) purifica-
tion of view, (4) purification by overcoming doubt, (5) purification
by knowledge and vision as to what is the path and what is not the
path, (6) purification by knowledge and vision of the way, and (7)
purification by knowledge and vision.

Guide to §22 [I.e. Bhikku Bodhi's comments]
These seven stages of purification are to be attained in sequence, each
being the support for the one that follows. The first purification corre-
sponds to the morality aspect of the path, the second to the concentration
aspect, the last five to the wisdom aspect. The first six stages are mun-
dane, the last is the supramundane paths.
See Table 9.2. [Page 345 of the PDF]
...
§29 Purification of Mind
Purification of mind consists of two kinds of concentration,
namely: access concentration and absorption concentration.

Guide to §29
The Pali Buddhist tradition recognizes two different approaches to
the development of insight. One approach, called the vehicle of calm
(samathayana), involves the prior development of calm meditation to
the level of access concentration or absorption concentration as a basis
for developing insight. One who adopts this approach, the samathay±nika
meditator, first attains access concentration or one of the fine-material
or immaterial-sphere jh±nas. Then he turns to the development of in-
sight by defining the mental and physical phenomena occurring in the
jhana as mentality-materiality and seeking their conditions (see §§30-
31), after which he contemplates these factors in terms of the three char-
acteristics (see §32). For this meditator, his prior attainment of access
or absorption concentration is reckoned as his purification of mind.

The other approach, called the vehicle of pure insight (suddha-
vipassanayana), does not employ the development of calm as a founda-
tion for developing insight. Instead the meditator, after purifying his
morality, enters directly into the mindful contemplation of the changing
mental and material processes in his own experience. As this
contemplation gains in strength and precision, the mind becomes
naturally concentrated upon the ever-changing stream of experience with
a degree of concentration equal to that of access concentration. This
moment-by-moment fixing of the mind on the material and mental
processes in their present immediacy is known as momentary concen-
tration (khaoikasamadhi). Because it involves a degree of mental
stabilization equal to that of access concentration, this momentary
concentration is reckoned as purification of mind for the vipassanayanika
meditator, the meditator who adopts the vehicle of pure insight. Such a
meditator is also called a “dry insight worker” (sukkhavipassaka) because
he develops insight without the “moisture” of the jhanas.
...
There is more detail in the Visuddhimagga: http://www.bps.lk/library-search-select.php?id=bp207h

:heart:
Mike

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16272
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: insight requires access concentration?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:58 pm

Off-topic posts removed. This is a discussion of the Classical progress of insight.

:heart:
Mike

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1340
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: insight requires access concentration?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:46 pm

One approach, called the vehicle of calm
(samathayana), involves the prior development of calm meditation

Right, jhana is calm

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16272
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: insight requires access concentration?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:57 pm

Please note that this thread is intended as a discussion of the validity of the statement:
insight requires, according to the commentaries, to develop the jhana factors to access-concentration level.
Posts that do not address that question in some way should be posted on the many other threads about jhana.

Furthermore, this thread is in the Classical Theravada section, so these guidelines apply:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=373#p3724

:heart:
Mike

Saengnapha
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: insight requires access concentration?

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:57 am

robertk wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:09 pm
As several of us have said "dry" is somewhat confusing characterisation of such practices, since insight requires, according to the commentaries, to develop the jhana factors to access-concentration level. And that is what such practices aim for. That would imply that it is partly a samatha practice
this was said on another topic.
we can discuss here.
What is your definition of insight?

User avatar
budo
Posts: 260
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am
Location: The world

Re: insight requires access concentration?

Post by budo » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:50 pm

I can only speak from my understanding of the suttas.

According to Anapada sutta, in third jhana one attains: Sampajañña - commonly translated as "clear knowing", "clear understanding", or "constant thorough understanding of impermanence"

"Furthermore, with the fading away of rapture, he entered and remained in the third jhana, where he meditated with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, sāriputto pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti. Yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

"And he distinguished the phenomena in the third jhana one by one: bliss and mindfulness and awareness and unification of mind; contact, feeling, perception, intention, mind, enthusiasm, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention. "

Ye ca tatiye jhāne dhammā—sukhañca sati ca sampajaññañca cittekaggatā ca, phasso vedanā saññā cetanā cittaṃ chando adhimokkho vīriyaṃ sati upekkhā manasikāro—


Wikipedia article on Sampajañña - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampaja%C3%B1%C3%B1a

This quality is not present in the previous jhanas, and I'm guessing not in access concentration either. If you look at the suttas involving the third noble truth "Impermanence" is always the first characteristic to be seen and understood.

"The perceptions of impermanence, not-self, ugliness, drawbacks, giving up, fading away, cessation, dissatisfaction with the whole world, non-desire for all conditions, and mindfulness of breathing." -AN10.60

or the last tetrad of anapanasati, first step: ""[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on impermenence.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on impermenence.' -MN 118

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests