Need to find a certain sutta

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Layt
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Need to find a certain sutta

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 9:33 am

Hi, could someone tell me the name of the sutta where a bhikkhu (I think it might've been Anuruddha) struggles to maintain the visualization of light, and the Buddha gives him many advices on how to maintain and expand his visualization ?

As far as I can recall it's the only sutta that provides an object of meditation.

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mikenz66
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Re: Need to find a certain sutta

Post by mikenz66 » Sun May 06, 2018 9:38 am

Hi Layt

MN 128
“Good, good, Anuruddha and friends! But as you live diligently like this, have you achieved any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a meditation at ease?” “Well, sir, while meditating diligent, keen, and resolute, we perceive both light and vision of forms. But before long the light and the vision of forms vanish. We haven’t found out the reason for that.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn128/en/sujato#sc19

Layt
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Re: Need to find a certain sutta

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 10:37 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 9:38 am
Hi Layt

MN 128
“Good, good, Anuruddha and friends! But as you live diligently like this, have you achieved any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, a meditation at ease?” “Well, sir, while meditating diligent, keen, and resolute, we perceive both light and vision of forms. But before long the light and the vision of forms vanish. We haven’t found out the reason for that.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn128/en/sujato#sc19
Oh thanks a lot ! Now I can come up with more theories ~

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Need to find a certain sutta

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun May 06, 2018 7:29 pm

what about dn 22? does that not provide several objects of contemplation
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
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Layt
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Re: Need to find a certain sutta

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 8:36 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 7:29 pm
what about dn 22? does that not provide several objects of contemplation
In my opinion the four frames of reference look more like attention subjects rather than concentration subjects, I don't think it's possible to develop one-pointed concentration with them. However, the mental visualization of light seems like an adequate concentration subject.

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DooDoot
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Re: Need to find a certain sutta

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 06, 2018 8:44 pm

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:36 pm
In my opinion the four frames of reference look more like attention subjects rather than concentration subjects, I don't think it's possible to develop one-pointed concentration with them. However, the mental visualization of light seems like an adequate concentration subject.
Jhana appear to be a higher or the highest development of the 2nd and 3rd Satipatthana given jhana starts with rapture feelings and ends with a pure mind (to be used for vipassana). Given feelings (vedana) are the primary meditation objects of the lower jhanas and purity of mind is the primary meditation object of the 4th jhana, these meditation objects serve as objects of Satipatthana, which is being mindful to not cling to the objects of meditation. However, unlike the lesser Satipatthana of Anapansati, the suttas do not mention awareness of breathing in jhana.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun May 06, 2018 8:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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mikenz66
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Re: Need to find a certain sutta

Post by mikenz66 » Sun May 06, 2018 8:47 pm

Layt wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:36 pm
In my opinion the four frames of reference look more like attention subjects rather than concentration subjects,
They seem to involve both, I think. MN118 extends on the breathing aspect of MN10/DN22, for example, https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato#3.8 to involve samadhi:
https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato#20.3
They practice breathing in immersing the mind in samādhi. They practice breathing out immersing the mind in samādhi.
‘samādahaṃ cittaṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘samādahaṃ cittaṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;
Or, if you prefer:
He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in concentrating the mind’;
he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out concentrating the mind.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/bodhi#sc20
:heart:
Mike

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DooDoot
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Re: Need to find a certain sutta

Post by DooDoot » Sun May 06, 2018 8:50 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:47 pm
They practice breathing in immersing the mind in samādhi. They practice breathing out immersing the mind in samādhi.
‘samādahaṃ cittaṃ assasissāmī’ti sikkhati, ‘samādahaṃ cittaṃ passasissāmī’ti sikkhati;
Unlike the Anapanasati Sutta, the suttas do not mention awareness of breathing in jhana. The Commentaries mention three levels of samadhi, namely, momentary, neighborhood & attainment. That the suttas do not mention awareness of breathing in jhana appears to support the Commentary view about three levels of samadhi. In other words, it appears doubtful the above quote from MN 118 refers to jhana. Ajahn Brahm contradicts himself in this regard; where he says there is no awareness of breathing in jhana yet stage 11 of Anapanasati refers to jhana.

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mikenz66
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Re: Need to find a certain sutta

Post by mikenz66 » Sun May 06, 2018 8:58 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 8:50 pm
Unlike the Anapanasati Sutta, the suttas do not mention awareness of breathing in jhana.
I don't understand this statement. Do you mean to say "other suttas", rather than "the suttas"?

Mike

Layt
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Re: Need to find a certain sutta

Post by Layt » Sun May 06, 2018 9:11 pm

I don't want to be mean but to me these four frames of reference, vipassanā, the idea of progressive jhāna and the practice of attention on the breath make zero sense to me.

The only practice that makes sense is the one where seeing rotten corpses produces disenchantment. Everything else look like some kind of joke. I mean there are people who say that focusing on the breath brings insight... then how about watching cars circulating on the road all day long ? It's impermanence too, and it's boring (dissatisfaction)... may be I should write a book about it.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Need to find a certain sutta

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun May 06, 2018 11:07 pm

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for awakening... the noble eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... equanimity... [the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing.

"Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
actually the buddha taught anapanasati after several monks killed themselves after practicing asubha
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

These, bhikkhus, are the ten kasiṇas bases. Which ten? One contemplates the earth kasiṇa, above, below, transversely, undivided, all-permeating; one contemplates the water kasiṇa, above, below, transversely, undivided, all-permeating; one contemplates the fire kasiṇa, above, below, transversely, undivided, all-permeating; one contemplates the air kasiṇa, above, below, transversely, undivided, all-permeating; one contemplates the blue kasiṇa, above, below, transversely, undivided, all-permeating; one contemplates the yellow kasiṇa, above, below, transversely, undivided, all-permeating; one contemplates the red kasiṇa, above, below, transversely, undivided, all-permeating; one contemplates the white kasiṇa, above, below, transversely, undivided, all-permeating; one contemplates the space kasiṇa, above, below, transversely, undivided, all-permeating; one contemplates the consciousness kasiṇa, above, below, transversely, undivided, all-permeating. These, bhikkhus, are the ten kasiṇas bases.
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 0-025.html

Eight positions of mastery. (1) When anyone pictures to himself some material feature of his person and sees [corresponding] features in others, lovely or ugly, as small, transcending this [object] he is aware of doing so, [thinks] ‘I know, I see!’ (2) Or when he has the same experience, but sees those features not as small, but as infinitely great, and nevertheless transcending this [object], and is aware of doing so [thinks]: ‘I know, I see!’ (3) Or when he sees the features in others lovely or ugly, as small, without first picturing any material feature of his own transcending this [object] he is aware of doing so, [thinks] ‘I know, I see!’ (4) Or when he sees the features in others but sees those features not as small, but as infinitely great, and nevertheless transcending this [object], and is aware of doing so [thinks]: ‘I know, I see!’ (5) Or when without the personal preliminary, he sees external shapes of indigo, indigo in colour, indigo in visible expanse, indigo in lustre, as is the ummā flower, or a Benares muslin delicately finished on both sides transcending this [object] he is aware of doing so, [thinks] ‘I know, I see!’ (6) or shapes of yellow, yellow in colour, yellow in visible expanse, yellow in lustre, as is the kaṇikāra flower, or Benares muslin delicately finished on both sides transcending this [object] he is aware of doing so, [thinks] ‘I know, I see!’ (7) or shapes of red, red in colour, red in visible expanse, red in lustre, as is the bandhujīvaka flower, or Benares muslin delicately finished on both sides transcending this [object] he is aware of doing so, [thinks] ‘I know, I see!’ (8) or shapes of white, white in color, white in visible expanse, white in lustre as is the morning star, or Benares muslin delicately finished on both sides transcends this [object] and is aware of doing so, [thinks]: ‘I know, I see!’
[...]
Ten objects for self-hypnosis. These, perceived severally as above, below or across, and as homogeneous, and without limits, are a piece of earth [extended matter], water, fire, air, indigo, yellow, red, white, space, consciousness.

https://suttacentral.net/dn33/en/tw-caf_rhysdavids
if you're not a fan of digha nikaya, you may also find this in MN 77 http://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts ... rn.pts.htm
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

Layt
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Re: Need to find a certain sutta

Post by Layt » Mon May 07, 2018 3:28 pm

By the way I'm pretty sure that concentrating too much on a mental visualization can cause hallucinations... perhaps those could explain the abhiññā.

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