What does "saṅkhāya uccārapassāvaṃ sandhāreti" mean here?

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sma
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What does "saṅkhāya uccārapassāvaṃ sandhāreti" mean here?

Post by sma » Fri May 04, 2018 8:21 am

So saṅkhāya kulāni upasaṅkamati, saṅkhāya nisīdati, saṅkhāya dhammaṃ bhāsati, saṅkhāya uccārapassāvaṃ sandhāreti.
He cunningly approaches families, cunningly sits down, cunningly speaks on the Dhamma, and cunningly holds in his excrement and urine[see the footnote].
Ime kho, bhikkhave, cattāro pabbajitassa rogā.
These are the four illnesses incurred by a monk.
-----
footnote given by the translator:
Manorathapūraṇī says the word “cunningly” (saṅkhāya, lit. “having calculated”) indicates that he tries to make a false impression on families (for the purpose of receiving offerings). The last phrase is perhaps similar in nuance to a well-known English slang expression.
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AN.4.157/ 7. Rogasuttaṃ
English translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi
------
My questions are:
Why are "cunningly sitting down" and "cunningly holding in one's excrement and urine" called illnesses?
What is the English slang mentioned by Bodhi Bhikkhu here?
Thank you in advance.

santa100
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Re: What does "saṅkhāya uccārapassāvaṃ sandhāreti" mean here?

Post by santa100 » Fri May 04, 2018 1:02 pm

sma wrote:My questions are:
Why are "cunningly sitting down" and "cunningly holding in one's excrement and urine" called illnesses?
What is the English slang mentioned by Bodhi Bhikkhu here?
Thank you in advance.
The "cunningly" is the key word. The context is that the bad bhikkhu has the unwholesome desire to "act" properly to impress on families so that he could get good offerings, which is in contrast to a good bhikkhu who would "naturally" do things properly without any expectation. A similar English slang is: "hold your shit together", which means to try to do or act in a socially acceptable way.

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sma
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Re: What does "saṅkhāya uccārapassāvaṃ sandhāreti" mean here?

Post by sma » Fri May 04, 2018 2:10 pm

santa100 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 1:02 pm
A similar English slang is: "hold your shit together", which means to try to do or act in a socially acceptable way.
"cunningly holding in one's excrement and urine"
Do you mean the expression here has nothing to do with relieving the bowels?
Is it just a figurative expression of acting in a socially acceptable way?
Last edited by sma on Fri May 04, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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sma
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Re: What does "saṅkhāya uccārapassāvaṃ sandhāreti" mean here?

Post by sma » Fri May 04, 2018 2:28 pm

"cunningly holding in one's excrement and urine"
My friend explained it like this:
The monk held in his excrement and urine until he found some clean and comfortable place(i.e. a luxury house) to relieve himself.
Is this explanation acceptable?
:?:

santa100
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Re: What does "saṅkhāya uccārapassāvaṃ sandhāreti" mean here?

Post by santa100 » Fri May 04, 2018 2:39 pm

sma wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:10 pm
santa100 wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 1:02 pm
A similar English slang is: "hold your shit together", which means to try to do or act in a socially acceptable way.
"cunningly holding in one's excrement and urine"
Do you mean the expression here has nothing to do with relieving the bowels?
Is it just a figurative expression of acting in a socially acceptable way?
As mentioned, doesn't matter if it means literally or figuratively, the key takeaway point of the whole sutta is the unwholesome intention to "fake it" for material gains, hence the "Illness" title.

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Re: What does "saṅkhāya uccārapassāvaṃ sandhāreti" mean here?

Post by Dhammanando » Fri May 04, 2018 2:41 pm

sma wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:10 pm
Is it just a figurative expression of acting in a socially consistent and acceptable way?
I take Bhikkhu Bodhi to be referring to the expression "to be anal-retentive". If I'm right, and if his conjecture is right, then it would mean for example a monk who acts in a very fastidious and pernickety way about minor rules of Vinaya, not because he really takes sīla seriously but because he wants householders to think that he does.

The phrase doesn't occur anywhere else in the canon and isn't defined in the commentaries. The Vinaya Piṭaka contains the similar-sounding vaccaṃ sandhāreti, "to retain one's faeces", but this is used only in a literal sense:

  • Now at that time monks relieved themselves in the privy according to seniority. Newly ordained monks, having arrived first, waited and through restraining themselves (vaccaṃ sandhārentā), they fell down fainting. They told this matter to the Lord. He said: “Is it true, as is said, monks?” “It is true, Lord.” Having rebuked them, having given reasoned talk, he addressed the monks, saying:

    “Monks, you should not relieve yourselves in a privy according to seniority. Whoever does (this), there is an offence of wrong-doing. I allow, you monks, to relieve yourselves according to the order of arrival.”
    (Vin. ii. 221)

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